Alien Worlds? More Q's than meets the eye

[donsnow]

Jesus is not just the Second Person of the Trinity because otherwise Jesus would not be human (because God the Son just has divine nature). You agreed to this in your last post: Jesus = the Son + a particular human nature provided by Mary. The Son can exist without an incarnation. If a particular human nature is joined with the Son (which it did with Jesus), the Son is technically not affected by it (but of course the particular human nature is … as well as all human nature because of it), and so if one incarnation of the Son does not affect the Son, then why would multiple incarnations be impossible … for why would the Son be limited to one incarnation, since one incarnation doesn’t change anything for the Son?

Why does the Son need another incarnation?

And once again, paradoxically, if the Son was incarnated twice, not only in Jesus but in some alien form, the two are still the same divine person … there would not be an extra person in the Trinity or an extra person in the Son.

How can you say that? I don’t understand.

The Son would be one, and yet look like he’s two different people in His incarnate forms, but really the two would be one person. See what I mean?

No, I really don’t see what you mean.

You seem to imply here that the Son only came about by the Incarnation of Jesus, but that’s not true. The Son always existed. Why would an alien incarnation add God the alien?

Because another incarnation adds the other person of the alien.

I could ask: why didn’t the incarnation of Jesus add God the human?

We could quite easily say that, but we don’t, because Jesus is the Son, a special kind of human. Just like God the Holy Trinity could incarnate an alien, but won’t because there’s Jesus, His “only begotten son”. From the beginning, the Word/Light was begotten; any alien would not be ‘from the beginning’.

Clearly, though, the Trinity always existed, the Son became incarnate, the Trinity stayed the same. Why can’t the Son become incarnate as an alien, and the Trinity still stay the same, since it didn’t change with one incarnation. Why would it all of sudden change with two? See what I mean?

No, I really don’t see what you mean. It’s like you’re ignoring the simple arithmetic that says God the alien would add one to the Holy Trinity and make it the Holy Foursome. That won’t happen, because He’s God the Holy Trinity, not four. or five. or six, etc.

Thank you very much. Merry Christmas to you and everybody with you as well.

You’re welcome.
We seem at an impass, here.

Don

 

[Areopagite]

Why does the Son need another incarnation?

All I’m saying is that another incarnation of the Son is possible. And I think God would become incarnate into an alien race if that race was fallen. That’s why I bring it up.

How can you say that? I don’t understand.

The reason why I would say that if the Son were incarnate in two forms (e.g. Jesus and some alien nature) and yet still be the same person, despite the appearance of looking like two people is this:

The Son always existed, even before His incarnation. Jesus didn’t have to exist and yet the Son would have always existed nonetheless. The Son was always one divine Person. When the Son took human nature in the case of Jesus, Jesus, despite having two natures (human and divine) was still one Person … one Divine Person, even. The heresy Nestorianism said that Jesus had two Persons … a divine Person and a human person. Whereas, the orthodox positions is that Jesus is one Person, with a divine nature and a human nature. Hence, it follows that if the Son took on another created nature (like an alien nature), the Son would still be one Person, despite the fact that He’s incarnated into two created natures. Does that make any sense?

Because another incarnation adds the other person of the alien.

I don’t see how you can say this and yet believe that Jesus’ incarnation didn’t add another person to Trinity also. You do believe that the Trinity was always three Persons, even without any incarnation, right? And you do believe that after the incarnation that resulted in Jesus, there were still only three Persons. So why can’t there be another incarnation, and yet have only three Persons still in the Trinity?

We could quite easily say that, but we don’t, because Jesus is the Son, a special kind of human. Just like God the Holy Trinity could incarnate an alien, but won’t because there’s Jesus, His “only begotten son”. From the beginning, the Word/Light was begotten; any alien would not be ‘from the beginning’.

I think I see what you’re saying, but I’m afraid it’s heretical … I think it’s Sabellianism, but I might be mistaken. I once thought this way too.

When we say that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, the “Begottenness” doesn’t refer to the miraculous conception in Mary at the annunciation. It refers to how God the Son (by Himself, not incarnate) exists by God the Father’s eternal act of knowledge. This is some complicated theology, and I am horribly underqualified to talk about this. But I think this is all covered in Augustine’s De Trinitate and the Cappodocian Fathers. You see, the three Persons of the Trinity are like this:

There is God the Father, and He eternally knows Himself perfectly and from that knowledge comes God the Son. God the Son isn’t “created” but His existence eternally stems from the Father’s knowledge of Himself. There is then the love between the Father and the Son … and that love is perfect and is actually another divine Person … namely, the Holy Spirit. Have you heard this before?

So, anyway, my point is, it is true that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, but that begetting doesn’t refer to the incarnation but the Trinitarian begetting of the Son. You see, the Son didn’t come into exist at the Annunciation. He pre-existed Mary’s conception of Jesus. Hence, if the Son became incarnate in another form, the Son is still the only begotten Son of the Father, only this time another created nature has been hypostatically joined to Him.

I don’t blame you if you didn’t follow that. But it’s true. Perhaps, however, I have misunderstood you, and I’m missing your objection, and if so, I apologize.

No, I really don’t see what you mean. It’s like you’re ignoring the simple arithmetic that says God the alien would add one to the Holy Trinity and make it the Holy Foursome. That won’t happen, because He’s God the Holy Trinity, not four. or five. or six, etc.

Once again, incarnations have never added Persons to the Trinity, not even Jesus’ incarnation, so any other incarnation wouldn’t either.

You’re welcome.
We seem at an impass, here.

I don’t think so. I’m benefitting greatly from this discussion. Hopefully, you are (or will) too.

 

[donsnow]

All I’m saying is that another incarnation of the Son is possible. And I think God would become incarnate into an alien race if that race was fallen. That’s why I bring it up.

That’s the nexus. Let me explain another reason that God wouldn’t incarnate an alien.
Gribbon andRee wrote the book, Cosmic Coincidences, The simple thesis of this 300 some odd page book was that if any of the nuclear forces in the universe: electromagnetic, weak gravity force and I forget the other one, were even a thousandth of a pico measurement different, humankind could not exist. The whole book explained the physics, math and biology behind that thesis. So, from that thesis I infer that the human being is favored by creation: that is to say, it’s highly probable that intelligent life on other planets will be human. The other side of that, is that it’s highly unlikely that other intelligent life would be alien. In short, there’s a good probability that there are no aliens.
Therefore, that’s the main reason that God will not incorporate a corporeal alien into the Second Person of His Holy Trinity. There aren’t any aliens.

The reason why I would say that if the Son were incarnate in two forms (e.g. Jesus and some alien nature) and yet still be the same person, despite the appearance of looking like two people is this:

And, I reiterate, the alien would not be an appearance, because the alien would be a separate person in its alien body, if there were aliens.

The Son always existed, even before His incarnation. Jesus didn’t have to exist and yet the Son would have always existed nonetheless. The Son was always one divine Person. When the Son took human nature in the case of Jesus, Jesus, despite having two natures (human and divine) was still one Person … one Divine Person, even. The heresy Nestorianism said that Jesus had two Persons … a divine Person and a human person. Whereas, the orthodox positions is that Jesus is one Person, with a divine nature and a human nature. Hence, it follows that if the Son took on another created nature (like an alien nature), the Son would still be one Person, despite the fact that He’s incarnated into two created natures. Does that make any sense?

Yes, that’s what I’ve been saying, the alien’s body would accrue a divine person to its carnal person and that won’t happen, it would be blasphemy.

I don’t see how you can say this and yet believe that Jesus’ incarnation didn’t add another person to Trinity also. You do believe that the Trinity was always three Persons, even without any incarnation, right? And you do believe that after the incarnation that resulted in Jesus, there were still only three Persons. So why can’t there be another incarnation, and yet have only three Persons still in the Trinity?

Because the alien’s body makes the fourth person. It makes the fourth person because the alien was not the Word/Light from the beginning.

I think I see what you’re saying, but I’m afraid it’s heretical … I think it’s Sabellianism, but I might be mistaken. I once thought this way too.

Yes it is and that’s why the fourth person won’t happen.

When we say that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, the “Begottenness” doesn’t refer to the miraculous conception in Mary at the annunciation. It refers to how God the Son (by Himself, not incarnate) exists by God the Father’s eternal act of knowledge. This is some complicated theology, and I am horribly underqualified to talk about this. But I think this is all covered in Augustine’s De Trinitate and the Cappodocian Fathers. You see, the three Persons of the Trinity are like this:

There is God the Father, and He eternally knows Himself perfectly and from that knowledge comes God the Son. God the Son isn’t “created” but His existence eternally stems from the Father’s knowledge of Himself. There is then the love between the Father and the Son … and that love is perfect and is actually another divine Person … namely, the Holy Spirit. Have you heard this before?

So, anyway, my point is, it is true that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, but that begetting doesn’t refer to the incarnation but the Trinitarian begetting of the Son. You see, the Son didn’t come into exist at the Annunciation. He pre-existed Mary’s conception of Jesus. Hence, if the Son became incarnate in another form, the Son is still the only begotten Son of the Father, only this time another created nature has been hypostatically joined to Him.

I don’t blame you if you didn’t follow that. But it’s true. Perhaps, however, I have
misunderstood you, and I’m missing your objection, and if so, I apologize.

What you have written is the perfection of the little part of that which I have written. We are agreed.

Once again, incarnations have never added Persons to the Trinity, not even Jesus’ incarnation, so any other incarnation wouldn’t either.

That the Word/Light was formed for Jesus and Jesus formed for the word light is from the beginning. Mary was without sin. The power of the Holy Spirit begat Jesus in her virgin womb. All that makes Jesus Christ the divine and human in one person.
You really think all of that is going to be repeated, to incarnate another person into the Holy Trinity? Personally, I don’t think so.

I don’t think so. I’m benefitting greatly from this discussion. Hopefully, you are (or will) too.

I hope you can see more of where I am at, now.
I’m having a wonderful Christmas. I wrote all this today with Christmas carols loudly playing.

Yes, I’m benefiting, too

Don

 

[Areopagite]

Therefore, that’s the main reason that God will not incorporate a corporeal alien into the Second Person of His Holy Trinity. There aren’t any aliens.

Well, if God wills it, there would indeed be aliens despite any scientific statistics. And because of that possibility, the topic of alien incarnation revelant.

Because the alien’s body makes the fourth person. It makes the fourth person because the alien was not the Word/Light from the beginning.

Why wouldn’t the alien be the Word/Light from the beginning? Obviously, if that alien is the Word incarnate (just as Jesus was, though Jesus would have a human nature rather than an alien nature … though they would both share the same divine nature … and the same Person of the Trinity), then in fact that alien IS the Word/Light from the beginning.

Yes it is and that’s why the fourth person won’t happen.

No, that’s not what I meant. If Sabellianism is true (which is a heresy), then what you’re saying is true: there would be a fourth person of the Trinity by another incarnation. However, if orthodox Catholicism is true, then there would not be a fourth Person of the Trinity by another incarnation. The incarnation that resulted in Jesus did not add a person to the Trinity, and hence another possible incarnation wouldn’t add one either. Right?

That the Word/Light was formed for Jesus and Jesus formed for the word light is from the beginning.

No, the Word was not formed for Jesus. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you though. God did not have to create us, but the Trinity would exist all the same. Jesus partly has a created nature. Hence, Jesus (in the full sense) never had to exist either. But all three Persons of the Trinity necessarily exist. Thus, the Word/Light was NOT formed for Jesus.

I agree that God had Jesus in mind the whole time with regard to his plan for creation … but why can’t He also have had an alien incarnation in plan for an alien race too?

Mary was without sin. The power of the Holy Spirit begat Jesus in her virgin womb. All that makes Jesus Christ the divine and human in one person.
You really think all of that is going to be repeated, to incarnate another person into the Holy Trinity? Personally, I don’t think so.

I think it’s possible. In fact, if an fallen alien race exists, it would seem that God would very much become incarnate again with a different created nature. There is no reason the Word can’t take on another nature … or perhaps even God the Father or God the Holy Spirit could become incarnate. Who knows?

Now, it seems to me I have knocked down all your objections to why an alien incarnation would add another Divine Person. I’m not entirely sure why you’re still arguing that. I apologize if I’ve missed the obvious reason.

I hope you can see more of where I am at, now.
I’m having a wonderful Christmas. I wrote all this today with Christmas carols loudly playing.

Yes, I’m benefiting, too

I’m very glad to hear that. I’ve been having a good Christmas as well. Christmas music the best.:extrahappy:

 

[donsnow]

Well, if God wills it, there would indeed be aliens despite any scientific statistics. And because of that possibility, the topic of alien incarnation revelant.

Why wouldn’t the alien be the Word/Light from the beginning? Obviously, if that alien is the Word incarnate (just as Jesus was, though Jesus would have a human nature rather than an alien nature … though they would both share the same divine nature … and the same Person of the Trinity), then in fact that alien IS the Word/Light from the beginning.

No, that’s not what I meant. If Sabellianism is true (which is a heresy), then what you’re saying is true: there would be a fourth person of the Trinity by another incarnation. However, if orthodox Catholicism is true, then there would not be a fourth Person of the Trinity by another incarnation. The incarnation that resulted in Jesus did not add a person to the Trinity, and hence another possible incarnation wouldn’t add one either. Right?

No, the Word was not formed for Jesus. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you though. God did not have to create us, but the Trinity would exist all the same. Jesus partly has a created nature. Hence, Jesus (in the full sense) never had to exist either. But all three Persons of the Trinity necessarily exist. Thus, the Word/Light was NOT formed for Jesus.

I agree that God had Jesus in mind the whole time with regard to his plan for creation … but why can’t He also have had an alien incarnation in plan for an alien race too?

I think it’s possible. In fact, if an fallen alien race exists, it would seem that God would very much become incarnate again with a different created nature. There is no reason the Word can’t take on another nature … or perhaps even God the Father or God the Holy Spirit could become incarnate. Who knows?

Now, it seems to me I have knocked down all your objections to why an alien incarnation would add another Divine Person. I’m not entirely sure why you’re still arguing that. I apologize if I’ve missed the obvious reason.

I’m very glad to hear that. I’ve been having a good Christmas as well. Christmas music the best.:extrahappy:

Dear Areopagite -

Thank you for mentioning that the Word/Light was not fashioned for Jesus. By the time I realized what I had written, the 20 minute limit to edit had expired. I wish they granted a 24 hour limit, to edit.

I have been thinking. You have brushed aside each of my reasons that I have answered you with. Your arguments have not persuaded me to change my mind, my opinion. What we have been discussing is your opinion and my opinion about this topic, and why.

As far as I can see, all we’re going to do is keep going round and round, each not convincing the other. I’m tired of that. I don’t want to do that, anymore.
I wish you would think again, on the reasons I have given you: no need for another incarnation.
I have seen and mentioned incarnations as a beggar, cripple or old man; I have seen and mentioned a type of incarnation of us in the mystical body of Christ. Isn’t that enough for you?
Even if there were another ‘fallen planet’, it could have been long ago, and the Theophanies and Prophets did their job and the people repented. Even if it’s been since the Word/Light’s incarnation in Jesus, the Prophets sent could have done their job and that planet repented, without another incarnation. I just don’t see it your way.

It’s been a good discussion, but my part of it is over.
May you enjoy the remainder of this Christmas season and a peaceful New Year.

My part of this thread ends here.

God loves ya’ll,
Don