Alienation in Tridentine Mass Community

[Mike30]

 

[Mike30]

If he’s our “young friend” then perhaps we should be friendlier?

Or is “our young friend” just a patronizing label?

Perhaps he (she?) has been scared away?

I thought I was being very friendly in pointing a way out of the horrible dilemma he found himself in.

No more patronizing than his statement below:

In another Sunday Mass, the choir director told the laity that there was insufficient time to practise singing the Eucharistic Hymn. Some old men yelled,’ Then we better not sing it!’ Which convulsed me with astonishment. Adoro Te Devote is such a well-known hymn that I don’t think there will be problem for those ‘traditional’ old Catholics.



Cheers!!

 

[Elizabeth502]

Some times people are like that-I assume preoccupied.Some elderly just don’t hear all that well.I work as a gardener at a college and greet everyone I see while working. Some look at me and just walk past, others are friendly. Some just take time to warm up and be friendly. With some after a long while I will finally get a return greeting, some I have gotten to know quite well who in the beginning would hardly even look at me Some all of them a sudden become friendly! My advice keep being friendly and try not to take it personally.I too enjoy the Traditional Mass.Take care.

Also, some elderly people are preoccupied for a number of reasons. Some are actually in a lot of pain (say, from arthritis in some cases, and other conditions). Some are kind of in “coping” mode (in that respect), and have not a lot of physical and psychic energy to be “bright-eyed and bushy-tailed” just because others --for example younger people – may be more carefree. Other seniors are quite warm and outgoing, but I find them to be an exception in a church environment, in any case. Others take a long time to warm up because they come from a time period in which others actually exercised respect and deference to their elders, honored privacy, and didn’t expect “instant” warmth from strangers.

Being reserved and self-contained is not a crime, but it seems in the ultra-modern era it can be looked upon as “rudeness” not to be demonstrative toward complete strangers.

As others have said, eventually most people warm up, and if they don’t, there’s probably a reason having nothing to do with anyone except themselves.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

You can find unfriendly people anywhere; including EF and OF parishes. My experience is that most folks are really pretty shy so they put up a defensive front. Same can be found in any organization or place where the public congregates.

I don’t worry about other people when at church. That’s not what I’m there for.

@ OP: You could try offering up these experiences to God and say a prayer for the people in the hopes that you can be a charitable parish community. Complaining about other peoples faults never helps; prayer, on the other hand does.

 

[anonymous1995]

First of all, I am not being patronizing or trying to portray the Traditional Latin Mass as elitist and conservative. These are my real encounters there and I have no intention to spark confrontations between the two Forms of the same Rite. Probably someone has misunderstood me. If I’m attempting to do so, I should have written how I averted from the community after my first TLM, how the people there were ostracizing outsiders other than me (there were quite a few ‘outsiders’, newbies), how the music was deplorable and how grateful I am towards the Liturgical Reform. Plus, I think I have mentioned somewhere in my previous posts that there are still some charitable people there. I have come across a friendly auntie and the organist is also amicable (though I didn’t have the chance to talk to him yesterday as he was chatting with someone else and interruption was impertinent).

After reading all these posts, perhaps the ‘problem’ is a mere issue of age gap. I am the only youngster present there. Other teens there are all altar boys and I don’t want to distract them from altar preparation and clean-up after Mass.

Mass is Mass. It is not a social gathering. This I always bear in mind. So I do not deliberately seek chit-chat opportunities or socialize with others. The main point of the post is just that I feel a bit uneasy about some people there.

Of course, this will never be an excuse hampering me from the beautiful liturgy. I also encountered some degree of ‘nonchalance’ and coldness in my home OF parish and Mass assistance is still my Sunday routine. After all, Mass is about Christ.

 

[ccmcmg]

I started attending the Traditional Latin Mass at the Tridentine Mass Community of my local diocese four months ago. Normally I go there twice a month.

What I feel is that there are some stubborn old men and ladies there who are unfriendly and alienate new attendants. They simply ignore your existence and call out to their friends. I am not trying to label anyone, but I feel that the community is like a small circle party. When I say hi to them after Mass, they just walk past and turn their head round which make me feel uneasy.

Having said that, I really enjoy the traditional Latin Mass - an enriching spiritual experience.

When I used to go to a Latin Mass, I found the same type of atmosphere-Outsiders not welcome. Basically to sum it up-Why are you here?

I think many people, no matter where you go, act this way. I find this same attitude in many N.O. parishes. Some people have clicks, most remember them from high school. MANY people never grow out of this attitude. It is ironic that many people attribute bad social behavior to the Mass that people attend.

We have a few people like that in our parish. They have been that way their whole life. Try not to take it personally. EVERYONE is not like that.

One of the things that was discouraging for me when I first started attending Mass, was how unfriendly Catholics appeared to me in general.

It just so happened that I found a Latin Mass community that has a coffee hour which helped me a lot in my transition.

So I don’t think it’s a Latin Mass thing - maybe the culture of the particular parish you attend.

It’s definitely not a Latin Mass thing; it happens at a lot of parishes. It could partly be that people are not used to strangers speaking to them. For some reason, I get along better with some people older than I am. People make snap assumptions if I don’t have small children with me, then I have nothing in common with them since they do.

We just joined our parish upon our return to the Faith last February, but still hardly know anyone compared to the number of people in our parish. Even though I’ve been a lector many times, I’m surprised by how few people actually speak to me unless I speak to them first as we gather before Mass in the prep room. I always have to speak to someone first and introduce myself. My husband seems to be faring better with his fellow ushers, but they are the same group every three weeks. Just yesterday, I spoke to a woman and she rushed away from me when I complimented her children; they had all sat behind me at the Mass I lector’ed at. Very unfriendly…especially since she was rushing to get to ‘social’ time after Mass.

At our previous parish many years ago, we were treated so poorly as newcomers, who didn’t live in a ‘planned community’ and weren’t rich (true story) (and I’m not a thin blonde)…it actually helped us out of the church, and out of our Faith for awhile (our own fault, but their treatment didn’t help). I’ve really made an effort to say hello to people I don’t know as I encounter them, compliment something about them or make small talk… But I do get tired of making the first move EVERY single time. I guess we have to give it time.

 

[Mike30]

What amazes me is that someone would actually worry about such a thing. That really puzzles me. I don’t go to Mass for lively fellowship good music or to join up with a Parish group or find friends. If it happens fine. If not no big deal. I go to Mass to worship God and receive the Sacrame ts. Everything else is secondary and to be blunt relatively unimportant in the scheme of things.

 

[triumphguy]

Whatever your personal preferences the parish community is important… and indeed is part of the Body of Christ.

You can’t be “Church” by yourself.

 

[Mike30]

When I am judged I will br judged as an individual not as a group. By your definition hermits would not be members of the body Christ because of their preferences. Somehow that doesnt sound right.

 

[MorEphrem]

I think it was just a fluke to be quite honest. Many western cultures permit a certain reservation to be blatantly permissible amongst groups (as opposed to Middle Eastern culture where everyone attacks you, force-feeding you and asking you where your family is from). I’ve honestly felt like a sore thumb in many Novus Ordo parishes as well, and in some the occasional friendly individual will come up to me and introduce themselves politely.

When I am judged I will br judged as an individual not as a group. By your definition hermits would not be members of the body Christ because of their preferences. Somehow that doesnt sound right.

Hermit is a very special vocation that very few have been given the virtue for and even fewer seek to answer. It is not a preferential option. And even hermits are called to be social (in some sense); if someone comes to them seeking confession or advice they should be pastoral and impart their wisdom (that’s what the Qadisha Valley hermits do, as St. Maron did in the 5th century).

 

[Mike30]

I think it was just a fluke to be quite honest. Many western cultures permit a certain reservation to be blatantly permissible amongst groups (as opposed to Middle Eastern culture where everyone attacks you, force-feeding you and asking you where your family is from). I’ve honestly felt like a sore thumb in many Novus Ordo parishes as well, and in some the occasional friendly individual will come up to me and introduce themselves politely.

Hermit is a very special vocation that very few have been given the virtue for and even fewer seek to answer. It is not a preferential option. And even hermits are called to be social (in some sense); if someone comes to them seeking confession or advice they should be pastoral and impart their wisdom (that’s what the Qadisha Valley hermits do, as St. Maron did in the 5th century).

In some sense. Yes. I still maintain that what is really important is your relationship with Godand not a relationship you may or may not have at Mass or at your Parish.

 

[MorEphrem]

In some sense. Yes. I still maintain that what is really important is your relationship with Godand not a relationship you may or may not have at Mass or at your Parish.

I’d concede the latter is definitely not nearly important or even relevant as a relationship with God. I would need to consider whether if it is truly unnecessary to at least try to have a relationship with the others in one’s community.

 

[M-Dent]

In some sense. Yes. I still maintain that what is really important is your relationship with God and not a relationship you may or may not have at Mass or at your Parish.

Yet, we must keep in mind an authentic relationship and Communion with God leads to relationships with others.

Here we need to consider yet another aspect: this sacramental “mysticism” is social in character, for in sacramental communion I become one with the Lord, like all the other communicants. As Saint Paul says, “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread” (1 Cor 10:17). Union with Christ is also union with all those to whom he gives himself. I cannot possess Christ just for myself; I can belong to him only in union with all those who have become, or who will become, his own. Communion draws me out of myself towards him, and thus also towards unity with all Christians. We become “one body”, completely joined in a single existence. Love of God and love of neighbour are now truly united: God incarnate draws us all to himself. We can thus understand how agape also became a term for the Eucharist: there God’s own agape comes to us bodily, in order to continue his work in us and through us. Only by keeping in mind this Christological and sacramental basis can we correctly understand Jesus’ teaching on love. The transition which he makes from the Law and the Prophets to the twofold commandment of love of God and of neighbour, and his grounding the whole life of faith on this central precept, is not simply a matter of morality—something that could exist apart from and alongside faith in Christ and its sacramental re-actualization. Faith, worship and ethos are interwoven as a single reality which takes shape in our encounter with God’s agape. Here the usual contraposition between worship and ethics simply falls apart. “Worship” itself, Eucharistic communion, includes the reality both of being loved and of loving others in turn. A Eucharist which does not pass over into the concrete practice of love is intrinsically fragmented.

DEUS CARITAS EST - BENEDICT XVI

 

[triumphguy]

When I am judged I will br judged as an individual not as a group. By your definition hermits would not be members of the body Christ because of their preferences. Somehow that doesnt sound right.

Hermits are under obedience to their bishop and so are part of the wider community.

 

[Mike30]

Yet, we must keep in mind an authentic relationship and Communion with God leads to relationships with others.

I understand. It may very well do that. But the relationship with the community or the type of community should in and of itself not be the primary reason for attending a specific Parish or a specific Mass. In fact, I would think that could actually lead almost to worshiping the community in a sense. In effect, celbrating the community and my place in it rather than celebrating the glory of God which can be done anywhere, alone or as a group.

 

[Mike30]

Hermits are under obedience to their bishop and so are part of the wider community.

Yet they routinely spend most of their time alone, in some cases, all of their time alone. Being part of a spiritual community, yes. part of a physical community, maybe, in an indirect sense in many cases.

 

[triumphguy]

Our religion is not private.

This priest is a hermit: see how much he serves his local community, and how much he relies on them.

frdavidjones.com/

 

[Mike30]

Our religion is not private.

This priest is a hermit: see how much he serves his local community, and how much he relies on them.

frdavidjones.com/

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. While community is important, it is way down on the list. Sorry. But it is.

Cheers:thumbsup:

 

[triumphguy]

It’s not an argument:

sacrosanctum concilium

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

He is present, lastly, when the Church prays and sings, for He promised: “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matt. 18:20) .

…the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; at the same time it is the font from which all her power flows. For the aim and object of apostolic works is that all who are made sons of God by faith and baptism should come together to praise God in the midst of His Church, to take part in the sacrifice, and to eat the Lord’s supper.

The liturgy in its turn moves the faithful, filled with “the paschal sacraments,” to be “one in holiness” [26]; it prays that “they may hold fast in their lives to what they have grasped by their faith”

And therefore the liturgical life of the parish and its relationship to the bishop must be fostered theoretically and practically among the faithful and clergy; efforts also must be made to encourage a sense of community within the parish, above all in the common celebration of the Sunday Mass.

Ecclesia de Eucharistia
vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html

Parishes are communities of the baptized who express and affirm their identity above all through the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

The liturgy is never anyone’s private property, be it of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated.

The Eucharist, precisely by building up the Church, creates human community.

… a truly Eucharistic community cannot be closed in upon itself, as though it were somehow self-sufficient; rather it must persevere in harmony with every other Catholic community.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Our religion is not private.

This priest is a hermit: see how much he serves his local community, and how much he relies on them.

frdavidjones.com/

Thank you for sharing the link.

God Bless.