"All be one"

[jlhargus]

Of course there was no magesterium at that time in the NT and not until centuries later unless you want to call the Jerusalem church a magesterium which I do not and I think Father Brownn would not either. Interesting discussion. Rob

JL: You are mistaken the NT tells us Christ chose, before He was crucified, and SENT that MAGISTERIAL teaching authority when He ascended. I wouldn’t call the Jerusalem church THE MAGISTERIUM. But I would certainly say the MAGESTERIUM met in council at Jerusalem. And authoritatively defined a standard theological dogma for the people of God.

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with its decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 For **it seemed good to the HOLY GHOST, and to US, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;] Using the guidance of the Holy Spirit, promised by Christ to lead them into all TRUTH, Jn16:13, along with their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. They defined teaching for the WHOLE CHURCH.

That magisterial teaching authority, SENT by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit. And all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15. Paul couldn’t settle the question on his own authority even though he was an apostle and taught the correct teaching on circumcision. But they listened to THE MAGISTERIUM with her God given authority to teach the WHOLE WORLD.
Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?

[Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, **he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;]

[Mt28:16 Then **THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED THEM. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, ** I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.]

In Mt28 Christ gives the great commission to TEACH all nations till the end. What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the ** APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE** and ** FELLOWSHIP**, and in ** BREAKING OF BREAD** (mass), and in ** PRAYERS**.

[Those that received his word were baptized. They were ADDED to the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP. That they may ALL be One VISIBLE Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship, as Christ prayed in the garden.

[Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.]

Eph4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, for the work of the ministry, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 THAT WE henceforth BE NO MORE CHILDREN, TOSSED TO AND FRO, and carried about WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom THE WHOLE BODY FITLY JOINED TOGETHER AND COMPACTED by that which EVERY JOINT SUPPLIETH, according to the effectual working in the measure of EVERY PART, maketh INCREASE OF THE BODY unto the edifying of itself in love.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR.]

[Jn17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for **them also which shall believe on me THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 That they ALL may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me. 22 And THE GLORY which THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; that they may be one, even as we are ONE: 23 I in them, and thou in me, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW that THOU HAST SENT ME, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.]

Christ is praying for the apostles and ALL who will believe in HIM THRU THEIR WORD throughout history. That they ALL be ONE, indivisible, VISIBLE BODY. Just as the TRINITY is one indivisible body (BEING) God. We in them, they in us thru the Holy Spirit. He is praying not only for SPIRITUAL UNITY and ONENESS, but also VISIBLE UNITY and ONENESS so the world may BELIEVE the Father sent Him. The world has to SEE ONE to BELIEVE. Jesus shares his glory, with the Church, in giving his authority and gifts to the Church.

Christ promised to be with that SENT MAGISTERIUM TILL THE END of the world. How, Apostolic succession the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination by laying of hands,. From the apostles to the bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the END. Those apart from apostolic succession are self appointed ministers on their own authority. They are not SENT they go on their own.

[Hb13:7 Remember them which HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU , who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hb13:17 OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

Ordination, Holy Orders, gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable ordained to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.
Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the ELDERS that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.] Paul thought ONE Correct DOCTRINE is of utmost importance to that ONE APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP, thru correct DOCTRINE people are saved.

 

[guanophore]

We explain what communion is regarding partiicating in Christs presence, and all who wish to experience his presence via the elements of bread and wine are invited to the Table of the Lord.

Seems direct from Paul and very similar to the ECFs. What is wrong with it?

1. The Apostles believed in the Real Presence
2. The Apostles practiced closed communion

We are spritual descendents of the apostles.

to the extent that you still hold to the Apostolic faith, yes.

What innovation are you speaking of? You say I dont ask questions but I do ask question after question and you seem unable to answer.

The innovation that one can participate in the presence of Christ through bread and wine, the rejection of the Real Presence, the abandoment of sacramental confession, the abandonment of the Apostolic succession and the NT priesthood, to name a few.

What was subtracted from what? That is the point.

It is a just question. The Reformers subtracted from the once for all Divine Deposit of faith, by removing parts of the One Faith, the garment began to unravel.

The Apostles believed and taught that unity exists in adherance to the Truth. Those who depart from Truth are no longer in unity.

 

[KathleenGee]

To come literally to one table to receive One Bread, One Body… is inconceivable these days…

 

[submariner2]

Innovations are most vulnerable to not reflecting authentic catechesis of Christ’s oral tradition passed down by the Apostles.

The great heresy in ancient Christianity was not believing that communicants were indeed receiving Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. This belief in the Eucharist has endured for 1,500 years up to those who departed, like the followers who left Christ when He first presented the means of receiving eternal life: the Eucharist.

The Memorial is the Covenant of the Blood, which the Bible speaks of 22 times vs 4 times/Dispensation.

True faith and practice demands unity of faith expressed in one heart and one mind.

‘As we believe, we pray’. The entire movements/rubrics in the parts of the Mass, including hand gestures, sitting, standing, kneeling – all are manifestations of the tradition of the understanding of the truth of Jesus Christ.

The Orthodox in their liturgies have more frequent bringing together the hands of the priest, whereas the Latin rite stresses more simplicity.

Hi Kathleen,

My church teaches the real presence of Christ and I see no reason for excommunication because of minor disagreements. I certainly see no absolute need to agree on hand gestures and rubrics. I am thankful that in my church all sincere christians are welcome to participate in communion with Christ at the Table of the Lord.

Rob

 

[submariner2]

1. The Apostles believed in the Real Presence

No dispute

1. The Apostles practiced closed communion

No evidence for that at all.

The innovation that one can participate in the presence of Christ through bread and wine, the rejection of the Real Presence, the abandoment of sacramental confession, the abandonment of the Apostolic succession and the NT priesthood, to name a few.

My church rejects none of that. We accept the real presence. We confess to God as Jesus taught. Our bishops and pastors are successors of the apostles. We accept the priesthood of all believers.

It is a just question. The Reformers subtracted from the once for all Divine Deposit of faith, by removing parts of the One Faith, the garment began to unravel.

We have all parts of the One Faith. Specifically what are we missing?

The Apostles believed and taught that unity exists in adherance to the Truth. Those who depart from Truth are no longer in unity.

We have the truth also.

Rob

 

[submariner2]

To come literally to one table to receive One Bread, One Body… is inconceivable these days…

Kathleen,

It is not inconceivable in my church. We offer it to all sincere christians. I am very thankful for that.

Rob

 

[submariner2]

Jherek,

It is more than a remembrance meal. It is a proclamation of Christs sacrifice and the real presence of the risen Christ, Christs body, which is our symbol of unity as taught by Paul. same as taught by the apostles and the ECFs before the 3rd century.

Rob

 

[submariner2]

Jharek,

That was when ordination of clergy was begun accoding to the historians both Catholic and protestant. No mention of it in the NT or by ECFs before 3rd century,

Rob

 

[jlhargus]

Kathleen, It is not inconceivable in my church. We offer it to all sincere christians. I am very thankful for that. Rob

JL: How do you know they are SINCERE Christians? How do you even know if they are Christian at all, do you question them?

 

[Contarini]

Jharek,

That was when ordination of clergy was begun accoding to the historians both Catholic and protestant. No mention of it in the NT or by ECFs before 3rd century,

Rob

Who are these scholars, and how are you/they defining ordination?

Edwin

 

[jlhargus]

That was when ordination of clergy was begun accoding to the historians both Catholic and protestant. No mention of it in the NT or by ECFs before 3rd century, Rob

Would that be ALL or SOME Catholic and Protestant historians? So you’ve read them all. Yet scripture says otherwise. I wonder which is right? Hmmmm.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

 

[submariner2]

JL: How do you know they are SINCERE Christians? How do you even know if they are Christian at all, do you question them?

jlhargus,

Of course we do not question. Do you question those at your communion?

We offer the presence of Christ so when they come we presume they are coming sincerely. Why not?

Rob

 

[submariner2]

jharek,

Its what the historians say. It is not my claim. But of course I find no ordination in the NT or in the writings of the early ECFs so it seems to be true to me.

Rob

 

[submariner2]

Who are these scholars, and how are you/they defining ordination?

Edwin

Fr. Raymond E. Brown and many others. They simply teach that the laying on of hands was not an ordination ceremony but a special blessing for a mission that did not relate to ordination or office of a clergy. The all say there were no clergy-priests in the NT.

Rob

 

[submariner2]

Would that be ALL or SOME Catholic and Protestant historians? So you’ve read them all. Yet scripture says otherwise. I wonder which is right? Hmmmm.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

jlhargus,

I find that Catholic and protestant historians are saying the same thing on these issues.

Your quote from Acts does not say “ordained” in the New Jerusalem Bible. It says elders or presbyters. The apostles are said to appoint some elders as per that verse, but no ordination. No doubt the apostles were recruiting church leaders (presbyters) to lead a congregation from place to place. There was no ordination ceremony as far as we know.
Rob

 

[Contarini]

Fr. Raymond E. Brown and many others. They simply teach that the laying on of hands was not an ordination ceremony but a special blessing for a mission that did not relate to ordination or office of a clergy.

Fr. Brown says this in the case of Paul and Barnabas. Does he say this with regard to all the instances of laying on of hands? He speaks in *Bishop and Presbyter *of the office of presbyter-bishop in the early Church. It seems odd to say that when you clearly have an office, and you clearly have a reference to laying on of hands, that the two are not connected.

I respect Fr. Brown’s work a lot more than do most of the folks on this forum. But he’s not an infallible oracle–sometimes in his zeal to interpret the NT in its historical context and not read later Catholic doctrine into it, he actually underestimates the NT roots of Catholic doctrine, I think. You won’t get very far simply trumpeting the fact that he’s Catholic–and a great Catholic scholar at that, whom as I said I respect very much.

And you’re misquoting what he said about the 3rd century. He said that by the 3rd century there was a universally followed practice of ordination. He did not say that the practice originated in the 3rd century.

Edwin

 

[submariner2]

jharek,

I read too many to list but among the Catholics are Fr. Brown, Meier, Johnson, Wills, Louth, and others. I also read the protestants. They all generally are saying the same thing.

Rob

 

[submariner2]

Fr. Brown says this in the case of Paul and Barnabas. Does he say this with regard to all the instances of laying on of hands? He speaks in *Bishop and Presbyter *of the office of presbyter-bishop in the early Church. It seems odd to say that when you clearly have an office, and you clearly have a reference to laying on of hands, that the two are not connected.

Contarini,

I see no reference to laying hands on presbyters. No one is sure that was an office anyway. Presbyter is simply the Greek for Elder and an Elder was not an office but rather an older wiser person with responsiblity.

I

respect Fr. Brown’s work a lot more than do most of the folks on this forum. But he’s not an infallible oracle–sometimes in his zeal to interpret the NT in its historical context and not read later Catholic doctrine into it, he actually underestimates the NT roots of Catholic doctrine, I think. You won’t get very far simply trumpeting the fact that he’s Catholic–and a great Catholic scholar at that, whom as I said I respect very much.

I simply say he was a great historian.

And you’re misquoting what he said about the 3rd century. He said that by the 3rd century there was a universally followed practice of ordination. He did not say that the practice originated in the 3rd century.

OK, Perhaps a bit earlier.

Rob

 

[pablope]

Fr. Brown says this in the case of Paul and Barnabas. Does he say this with regard to all the instances of laying on of hands? He speaks in *Bishop and Presbyter *of the office of presbyter-bishop in the early Church. It seems odd to say that when you clearly have an office, and you clearly have a reference to laying on of hands, that the two are not connected.

I respect Fr. Brown’s work a lot more than do most of the folks on this forum. But he’s not an infallible oracle–sometimes in his zeal to interpret the NT in its historical context and not read later Catholic doctrine into it, he actually underestimates the NT roots of Catholic doctrine, I think. You won’t get very far simply trumpeting the fact that he’s Catholic–and a great Catholic scholar at that, whom as I said I respect very much.
**
And you’re misquoting what he said about the 3rd century. He said that by the 3rd century there was a universally followed practice of ordination. He did not say that the practice originated in the 3rd century. **
Edwin

This is what me, guan…and others have noted and pointed out to Submariner Rob…but Rob cannot seem to grasp it…or has refused to change his presupposition on his position.

It seems that Rob had this presuposition on ordination…and when he read Fr. Brown’s passage on ordination…his immediate conclusion is it was not present in the early church…

 

[jlhargus]

I find that Catholic and protestant historians are saying the same thing on these issues.

JL: Well at least one. Whom you misquote or misinterpreted.

Originally Posted by submariner2
Here is the opinion of Father Raymond Brown on that issue.

“Most of the NT was written before the major breaks in ‘koinia’. detectable in the second century, and so NT diversity cannot be used to justify Christian division today. We modern Christians have broken ‘koinonia’ with each other, for, explicitly or implicitly, we have excommunicated and/or stated that other christians are disloyal to the will of Christ in major issues. Such a DIVIDED situation does not have NT approbation.”

Raymond Brown, The Churches The Apostles Left Behind, p 148. Approved with the Imprimatur. Rob

Because the NT was written BEFORE breaks in koinia. The NT can’t be used to JUSTIFY DIVISION TODAY. There is no NT approbation (APPROVAL) for DIVISIONS TODAY.

Your quote from Acts does not say “ordained” in the New Jerusalem Bible. It says elders or presbyters. The apostles are said to appoint some elders as per that verse, but no ordination. No doubt the apostles were recruiting church leaders (presbyters) to lead a congregation from place to place. There was no ordination ceremony as far as we know. Rob

JL: Some use ordain some use appointed. Choice, of the word used, is up to the translator. I have no problem with either. I posted from a Protestant Bible the KJV. Here is a Catholic version saying ordained.

[Acts14:22 And when they had ordained to them priests in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed. 23 And passing through Pisidia, they came into Pamphylia.] DRA

Of course we do not question. Do you question those at your communion? We offer the presence of Christ so when they come we presume they are coming sincerely. Why not? Rob

JL: That’s not what you said in your previous post. As far as why not? I would ask why not an atheist?

It is not inconceivable in my church. We offer it to all sincere christians. I am very thankful for that. Rob