"All be one"

[mercytruth]

Someone else has stated it, but it needs repeating. Our Lord Jesus Christ prayed that our unity would be as the Father and the Son are one.

This sort of oneness is not speaking of the unity that derives from a unified ecclessial authority. This sort of oneness is not speaking of the unity that derives from a unified doctrine of the faith.

The oneness between the Father and the Son is in their mutual love for us. A love that is sacrificial. The Father gave his Son over to death that we might have eternal life. The Son gave himself over to death in loving obedience to His Father’s love for us.

There is no unity between us, unless we are unified by our willingness to give ourselves over to death for the salvation of the world. We will never be unified unless we are unified in our willingness to be obedient to the will of God our Father, and to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ is that “we must deny ourselves, take up our cross daily, and follow Jesus Christ for his sake”…“for whosoever would save his life will lose it, but whosoever will lose his life for my sake will save it.”

This central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ is summarized by the apostle John, and is the only way for the love of the Father to remain in us as it did in His Son:

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, for all that is in the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world, and the world is passing away with the lusts thereof, but he who does the will of the Father will abide forever."

This is the way of unity as I understand it, and it requires humility and faith.

 

[MartinJordan]

I’ll be more specific. Which/how many sees bear the name of an apostle and claim apostolic succession from then till now, how many of them are in union with each other as you understand apostolic union, and how many of those apostolic seats are in union with Rome?

In other words, how is that apostolic unity- right now- today? Is it aight?

Gospel of John, an Apostle (thus Apostolic tradition allowing us to read it) shows Jesus’ prayer for unity. Catholic churches have really no issue about this interpretation.

Are you now agreeing with me that it is Apostolic tradition?

Meanwhile, your question is trying to delve into something else entirely and should be another thread if you do so want to discuss it.

BTW, JLhargus (name removed by moderator)ut is a good one. More specific to this thread.

MJ

 

[Eric_Hyom]

fhansen;
People would have to agree on (and so submit to) doctrine

If we are to submit to any doctrine, then we should submit to the greatest doctrine above all else, and Jesus said two commandments are greatest. Can these commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father? When Jesus spent his time on Earth he would have lived by these commandments,

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Does God the Father respond to this love?

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

Can God the Father or Son love us more than they love themselves.

Can the spirit be the power of God’s love working through the greatest commandments?

This passage links the spirit and the greatest commandments…
1 Samuel 18

1 Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself****

Can Christians be as one through the greatest commandments?

 

[Sixpence]

We need to get together, and an honest study of Christian history makes it obvious that from the time of Christ’s ascension, it’s been the Catholic Church. We need to all get back to that.

Even if everything you said was entirely true, this is not an attainable goal. We are not going to all get back to the Catholic Church. Unity among all Christians is not going to be mediated through unity with the pope. Be realistic. Don’t set yourself up for inevitable disappointment. Be pragmatic and be open to something that’s more realistic and feasible. There are other options, and most of them are better than the one you’re currently committed to.

 

[adf417]

Someone else has stated it, but it needs repeating. Our Lord Jesus Christ prayed that our unity would be as the Father and the Son are one.

This sort of oneness is not speaking of the unity that derives from a unified ecclessial authority. This sort of oneness is not speaking of the unity that derives from a unified doctrine of the faith.

The oneness between the Father and the Son is in their mutual love for us. A love that is sacrificial. The Father gave his Son over to death that we might have eternal life. The Son gave himself over to death in loving obedience to His Father’s love for us.

There is no unity between us, unless we are unified by our willingness to give ourselves over to death for the salvation of the world. We will never be unified unless we are unified in our willingness to be obedient to the will of God our Father, and to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ is that "we must deny ourselves, take up our cross daily, and follow Jesus Christ for his sake"…“for whosoever would save his life will lose it, but whosoever will lose his life for my sake will save it.”

This central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ is summarized by the apostle John, and is the only way for the love of the Father to remain in us as it did in His Son:

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, for all that is in the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world, and the world is passing away with the lusts thereof, but he who does the will of the Father will abide forever."

This is the way of unity as I understand it, and it requires humility and faith.

Mercy,

Is it your belief then that even JW’s are within the “one” unity of Christ? It seems to me JW’s fit into what you have described above in the central teaching.

Peace!!!

 

[adf417]

Even if everything you said was entirely true, this is not an attainable goal. We are not going to all get back to the Catholic Church. Unity among all Christians is not going to be mediated through unity with the pope. Be realistic. Don’t set yourself up for inevitable disappointment. Be pragmatic and be open to something that’s more realistic and feasible. There are other options, and most of them are better than the one you’re currently committed to.

What are some other options that would be better?

 

[mercytruth]

Mercy,

Is it your belief then that even JW’s are within the “one” unity of Christ? It seems to me JW’s fit into what you have described above in the central teaching.

Peace!!!

adf417,

Fortunately, I am not the judge. Ultimately, our Lord Jesus Christ will separate us as either goats, or sheep. The sheep are one with the Father and with the Son, and will be one with one another in the kingdom to come.

Peace to you, too.

 

[Sixpence]

What are some other options that would be better?

Some avenue by which the elimination of all Christian groups except one is not the goal. This means you continue to have different denominations- the Catholic Church comprising 27 of them- and they figure out how to be one with denominations that are not Catholic and remain non-Catholic.

But how can this possibly be done, so long as Peter-unity is equated/conflated with Christ-unity? Well, it’s not. So get a new perspective on what it means to be one in Christ- one that does not necessitate being one in Peter.

It is inappropriate and wrong to equate Peter-unity with Christ-unity. But even if it is right, it’s not gonna happen. No, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. Yeah!

 

[Cat]

Even if everything you said was entirely true, this is not an attainable goal. We are not going to all get back to the Catholic Church. Unity among all Christians is not going to be mediated through unity with the pope. Be realistic. Don’t set yourself up for inevitable disappointment. Be pragmatic and be open to something that’s more realistic and feasible. There are other options, and most of them are better than the one you’re currently committed to.

Well now, maybe I still have enough “Protestant” in me to believe in the impossible.

And I’ve seen it happen. Ten years ago, if you had told me that my husband and I, along with our daughter, would be Catholic, we would have laughed in your face. Now we are not only Catholics, but there’s a very good chance that our parents-in-law will convert–that’s about as “impossible” as Pres. Obama switching to the Republican party and advocating for abolishing the federal income tax!

I’ve also seen the miracle of the collapse of the Soviet Union, due in part to the work of Pope John Paul II (along with Pres. Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev). Never, ever, did I expect this to happen. I grew up with the Cold War and fully expected the fight against Communism to continue for the rest of world history. Boy, was I wrong! (Thankfully.) I remember sitting in front of the television set watching the wall come down and thinking, “I can see God working.” And at that time, I had no idea how much influence the Pope had on this event, but I KNEW that God was doing the work of ending the oppressiveness of the Soviet Union.

Don’t worry, I’m not going to be disappointed. It’s not up to me, it’s up to God. I trust in Him to do what HE wants to happen, and He Himself prayed for this to happen.

I certainly don’t expect unity under the Catholic Church while I am still alive, although I think it’s possible (I’m 55.) As evil in this world becomes the norm, it makes sense that the sheep will flee to the protection of their Shepherd, the Lord Jesus, and He will direct them to His Church so that there will be unity in the battle against evil.

But realistically, I’m thinking that this will happen within the the next 50-100 years or so, as evil continues to grow in this world. If we don’t unify, the wolves will get us and our children.

Read Being the Body, by Chuck Colson (RIP, good brother in Christ). This book is one of the reasons I became Catholic, and it will make you think long and hard about the very real possibility of unity happening.

 

[jlhargus]

I’ll be more specific. Which/how many sees bear the name of an apostle and claim apostolic succession from then till now,

Very few sees bear the name of an apostle and claim apostolic succession from then till now. That makes no difference. Your view of apostolic succession from a certain apostle can be called apostolic succession. However, more to the point and what really counts, is apostolic succession, is continued in evey see in the world.

Apostolic succession thru the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination by laying of hands, from the apostles to the bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the END.

[Hb13:17 **OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for THEY WATCH FOR YOUR SOULS, as THEY that MUST GIVE ACCOUNT, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

The Sacrament of Ordination gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit which empowers the ordained to fulfill his mission.

[2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou **STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.]

[Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Acts14:23 And **WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH **, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE**, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.]

Paul seemed to think ONE Correct DOCTRINE is essential, for UNITY, in that ONE VISIBLE APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP. Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship.

[Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after ** I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]
[Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE **WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.]

[1TIM 5:17 Let the ELDERS that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially **they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.]

how many of them are in union with each other as you understand apostolic union, and how many of those apostolic seats are in union with Rome? In other words, how is that apostolic unity- right now- today? Is it aight?

Apostolic union would be all the bishops of the world in UNION with the holder of the keys. Those who are not in union with the holder of the keys are outside the Apostolic (union) Fellowship. In which the ONE BODY of Christ subsists. No matter who separates from that body, the Church is ONE. [Eph4: 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is **ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE of your calling; 5 ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, 6 ONE GOD and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:]

 

[jlhargus]

Some avenue by which the elimination of all Christian groups except one is not the goal. This means you continue to have different denominations- the Catholic Church comprising 27 of them- and they figure out how to be one with denominations that are not Catholic and remain non-Catholic.

But how can this possibly be done, so long as Peter-unity is equated/conflated with Christ-unity? Well, it’s not. So get a new perspective on what it means to be one in Christ- one that does not necessitate being one in Peter.

It is inappropriate and wrong to equate Peter-unity with Christ-unity. But even if it is right, it’s not gonna happen. No, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. Yeah!

Christian UNITY can never be brought about by denying the gospel TRUTH. Something else that’s definitally NOT GONNA HAPPEN. The union of thousands of contenteous CONTRADICTING denominations. Even those who don’t even care what anyone in thier congregation believes can’t unite. Tell us the name of your faith group so we can see how submissive they are. Of course you won’t name it because you don’t want to defend it.

 

[adf417]

Some avenue by which the elimination of all Christian groups except one is not the goal.!

Just because it’s not your goal doesn’t mean it’s not mine and it is extreamly unfortunate you are not open to this concept.

This means you continue to have different denominations- the Catholic Church comprising 27 of them- and they figure out how to be one with denominations that are not Catholic and remain non-Catholic.

But how can this possibly be done, so long as Peter-unity is equated/conflated with Christ-unity? Well, it’s not. So get a new perspective on what it means to be one in Christ- one that does not necessitate being one in Peter.

It is inappropriate and wrong to equate Peter-unity with Christ-unity. But even if it is right, it’s not gonna happen. No, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. Yeah!

Let me try to ask it a little different way… If the RCC no longer existed, the papacy is 500 years non existant, Mary just has a little lamb, How then would the rest of Christianity be working to be “one in Christ”? Again I assume you feel the rest of Christianity is not currently there, no? Forgive me if you already tried to explane this in a previous post but I am pretty simple.

Peace !!!

 

[Sixpence]

Christian UNITY can never be brought about by denying the gospel TRUTH. Something else that’s definitally NOT GONNA HAPPEN. The union of thousands of contenteous CONTRADICTING denominations. Even those who don’t even care what anyone in thier congregation believes can’t unite. Tell us the name of your faith group so we can see how submissive they are. Of course you won’t name it because you don’t want to defend it.

You’re throwing up a couple of obstacles to unity here. First, you’re not at all respectful in general. Second, you presume to speak on behalf of others when you have no right to, and furthermore, you put words in their mouth to the effect that they deny the gospel truth, they don’t care about doctrinal beliefs, and whether they do or don’t, your misinformed perspective judges them as unable to unite in any meaningful sense whatsoever. No wonder you have no respect for me- you don’t even know what you’re looking at.

Yes, I did see where you demanded that I give a more specific identity for my faith-group. But I didn’t appreciate the tone of your post, I don’t like how you told me to do it, and I want to ensure that at least one point lands. You don’t even know what you’re looking at. As a reminder of this, you get to go a little longer without knowing. If you choose to keep talking to me- with a different approach, of course- I will tell you.

 

[jlhargus]

Christian UNITY can never be brought about by denying the gospel TRUTH. Something else that’s definitally NOT GONNA HAPPEN. The union of thousands of contenteous CONTRADICTING denominations. Even those who don’t even care what anyone in thier congregation believes can’t unite. Tell us the name of your faith group so we can see how submissive they are. Of course you won’t name it because you don’t want to defend it.

You’re throwing up a couple of obstacles to unity here. First, you’re not at all respectful in general. Second, you presume to speak on behalf of others when you have no right to, and furthermore, you put words in their mouth to the effect that they deny the gospel truth, they don’t care about doctrinal beliefs, and whether they do or don’t, your misinformed perspective judges them as unable to unite in any meaningful sense whatsoever. No wonder you have no respect for me- you don’t even know what you’re looking at.

Yes, I did see where you demanded that I give a more specific identity for my faith-group. But I didn’t appreciate the tone of your post, I don’t like how you told me to do it, and I want to ensure that at least one point lands. You don’t even know what you’re looking at. As a reminder of this, you get to go a little longer without knowing. If you choose to keep talking to me- with a different approach, of course- I will tell you.

I guess that’s as good an excuse as any. I knew you won’t tell us.

 

[Sixpence]

Well now, maybe I still have enough “Protestant” in me to believe in the impossible.

And I’ve seen it happen. Ten years ago, if you had told me that my husband and I, along with our daughter, would be Catholic, we would have laughed in your face. Now we are not only Catholics, but there’s a very good chance that our parents-in-law will convert–that’s about as “impossible” as Pres. Obama switching to the Republican party and advocating for abolishing the federal income tax!

Personal decisions to convert are not that uncommon. Converting to Catholicism is relatively uncommon, but it’s not hard to see why an anti-Catholic might choose to convert.

I’ve also seen the miracle of the collapse of the Soviet Union, due in part to the work of Pope John Paul II (along with Pres. Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev). Never, ever, did I expect this to happen. I grew up with the Cold War and fully expected the fight against Communism to continue for the rest of world history. Boy, was I wrong! (Thankfully.) I remember sitting in front of the television set watching the wall come down and thinking, “I can see God working.” And at that time, I had no idea how much influence the Pope had on this event, but I KNEW that God was doing the work of ending the oppressiveness of the Soviet Union.

I can see why you made the analogy, but Protestantism is nothing like the Soviet Union or the Roman Empire or the Ottoman Empire. It’s not even really like a bloc. The Catholic Church is actually more analogous to any of those things. Protestantism is a lot more like the Non-Aligned Movement, or NATO, or perhaps PACOM. There is not any one man- or even a small group of men- that can dissolve Protestantism/Evangelicalism in whole or even in significant parts. State religion is largely a thing of the past, so you can’t depend on someone like Napoleon to “save you” from “us.” You have to depend on individual decisions to abandon a flexible, competitive, evangelism-oriented coalition of churches in favor of a rigid inflexible one-trick pony that has virtually no lay involvement in evangelism. You can’t depend on this. What you’ve always needed is a means of eliminating the competition, and now you don’t have that. Turns out, European Christianity is not very competitive when people really have other choices.

Don’t worry, I’m not going to be disappointed. It’s not up to me, it’s up to God. I trust in Him to do what HE wants to happen, and He Himself prayed for this to happen.

Jesus did not pray for the elimination of all Christian faith-groups save one. He also did not pray that all would be united in Peter. He prayed that we would be one as He and His Father are one. His prayer is not your goal. You have a different goal, and Jesus’ prayer for unity is a pretext. You shouldn’t use it as a pretext, you should make it the real goal.

I certainly don’t expect unity under the Catholic Church while I am still alive, although I think it’s possible (I’m 55.) As evil in this world becomes the norm, it makes sense that the sheep will flee to the protection of their Shepherd, the Lord Jesus, and He will direct them to His Church so that there will be unity in the battle against evil.

You just might live to see the day when less than 50% of Christians in the world are Catholic. I believe you will- and I hope that I live to see the day when Protestants, Evangelicals, and Independents outnumber the Catholic Church by themselves. I also have a prediction for the ongoing discussions between Catholic bishops and Orthodox bishops. In about 25 years, your bishops will begin to wonder why they aren’t making the progress they’d hoped for. And in about 100 years, Catholics will look back on what’s happening now, wonder why it didn’t work, and look for the things that were done right- but mostly, they’ll look for the lessons they can learn as far as what not to do. The Schism will still be a Schism 200 years from now and well beyond that, too. Catholicism needs to drop to less than 30% of Christianity’s market share before Rome will make the concessions that it needs to make.

But realistically, I’m thinking that this will happen within the the next 50-100 years or so, as evil continues to grow in this world. If we don’t unify, the wolves will get us and our children.

This is not realistic- Catholicism will lose percentage points in the next 50-100 years, not gain them. And wolves, really? You don’t live in Eastern Europe, do you? Wait- unless the wolves are really people, and those people are…non-Catholic Christians who enjoy comparative success in engaging young people with religion, including Catholic children? Is that where you’re going with it?

Read Being the Body, by Chuck Colson (RIP, good brother in Christ). This book is one of the reasons I became Catholic, and it will make you think long and hard about the very real possibility of unity happening.

I haven’t read that one yet, but I will look into it. Chuck Colson is also one of the main public figures of the past century that caused the Evangelical meaning of “born again” to be the most ubiquitous one. Have you looked into that at all, or do you just give it a passing glance whenever you’re forced to redefine those words on Catholic terms?

 

[Sixpence]

Just because it’s not your goal doesn’t mean it’s not mine and it is extreamly unfortunate you are not open to this concept.

It’s unfortunate that you don’t see what a bad idea your goal is, present circumstances considered.

Let me try to ask it a little different way… If the RCC no longer existed, the papacy is 500 years non existant, Mary just has a little lamb, How then would the rest of Christianity be working to be “one in Christ”? Again I assume you feel the rest of Christianity is not currently there, no? Forgive me if you already tried to explane this in a previous post but I am pretty simple.

Peace !!!

That scenario is not going to happen. What I see happening among Evangelicals, however, is a process not very much unlike any given academic process whereby something like scientists or historians determine what is accepted in their field and what is not. Experts work together in something less like a Council and more like a Society that largely consists of people (experts) writing things and reviewing each others’ work, and through this process, they constantly have a variety of matters that are under consideration while reaching consensus on certain matters which they are of one mind in holding fast to or rejecting. It’s a process, and it certainly doesn’t happen overnight. But it’s the best way to make progress. Average Christians, of course, could choose to interact with this process or ignore it. And church leaders could choose to work well with others or take their ball and go home. But over time, it will become especially clear that refusing to engage in the process is bad for churches, for leaders, and for those being led. I don’t think that Catholic or Orthodox leaders could ever bring themselves to be a part of something like this, but it would get their attention, especially if this sort of process came to supercede any of them in the scope of its influence on Christian beliefs and attitudes in the world. It might even cause the Catholic and Orthodox bishops to work together more, in much the same way that America’s unparalleled success and prosperity encouraged European countries to form the EU- in order to maintain economic competitiveness, and so Greece could get bailed out with a few strings attached. But I digress. That is the sort of at-will participation that America will bring to the table, and when the influence of this thing far outweighs the influence of your thing, your thing will change in ways that make it a bit more competitive. I don’t see a future absent of the CC or the EOC as realistic, meaning I believe there’s a zero percent chance that either of them will go away entirely. But I do see a future where American Protestants/Evangelicals take the initial lead in developing the kind of multi-national para-church organization that can support this sort of process. Rome is going to spend a lot of time and effort on figuring out just what this thing is and how, exactly, Rome should regard it. It probably won’t come up with any definitive answer. Rome came up with a definitive idea of what they thought the Reformers were, but as yet, it doesn’t know what to make of their theological descendants that are 500 years removed from the Reformation. Once my prediction comes true, Rome will be in an even more awkward position. It still won’t know what to make of those people, and in a very real sense, those people will also be running the show.

 

[adf417]

Thank you for your response Six,

That scenario is not going to happen. What I see happening among Evangelicals, however, is a process not very much unlike any given academic process whereby something like scientists or historians determine what is accepted in their field and what is not…

In your wisdom, will this have to happen before or after the 25 year prediction to Cat where you say our bishops will wonder…? How is this working for you now? Will we see less and less splits sometime in the future to begin this trend?

But it’s the best way to make progress…

Especially when you hear adamant comments like…

But even if it is right, it’s not gonna happen. No, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. Yeah!

This still doesn’t mean it is the only way, it just means it the only way you can see. There is a better way if we did not have to worry about human egos and competition like…

…and I hope that I live to see the day when Protestants, Evangelicals, and Independents outnumber the Catholic Church by themselves

Jesus did not pray for the elimination of all Christian faith-groups save one…

There are many things he didn’t pray for but there IS one you got right when you say…

He prayed that we would be one as He and His Father are one

As always, Peace be on to you!!!

 

[jlhargus]

Christian UNITY can never be brought about by denying the gospel TRUTH. Something else that’s definitely NOT GONNA HAPPEN. The union of thousands of contentious CONTRADICTING denominations. Even those who don’t even care what anyone in their congregation believes can’t unite. Tell us the name of your faith group so we can see how submissive they are. Of course you won’t name it because you don’t want to defend it.

You’re throwing up a couple of obstacles to unity here. First, you’re not at all respectful in general. Second, you presume to speak on behalf of others when you have no right to, and furthermore, you put words in their mouth to the effect that they deny the gospel truth, they don’t care about doctrinal beliefs, and whether they do or don’t, your misinformed perspective judges them as unable to unite in any meaningful sense whatsoever. No wonder you have no respect for me- you don’t even know what you’re looking at. Yes, I did see where you demanded that I give a more specific identity for my faith-group. But I didn’t appreciate the tone of your post, I don’t like how you told me to do it, and I want to ensure that at least one point lands. You don’t even know what you’re looking at. As a reminder of this, you get to go a little longer without knowing. If you choose to keep talking to me- with a different approach, of course- I will tell you.

JL: Honestly Sixpence I see your post as a diversion. I knew you wouldn’t give the name of your denomination when I asked the first time in post 21. I would appreciate you posting examples where I put words in the mouth of others. Also how I am not at all respectful in general. So I may know for future reference. If I don’t know what I’m looking at. It’s because I don’t see ONE but thousands of denominations that is the reality. Christ prayed believers be VISIBLY ONE so the world can SEE and believe. In order to SEE ONE it must be VISIBLY ONE. When I look at Protestantism I SEE thousands not ONE.

[Acts2:41 Then **THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED: AND the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in **PRAYERS **.]

What were they added to and continued in? ONE VISIBLE APOSTLIC DOCTRINE, ONE FELLOWSHIP, Breaking of Bread=Mass and in prayers. Christ has ONE VISIBLE BRIDE not a harem of thousands.

 

[jlhargus]

Read Being the Body, by Chuck Colson (RIP, good brother in Christ). This book is one of the reasons I became Catholic, and it will make you think long and hard about the very real possibility of unity happening.

Personal decisions to convert are not that uncommon. Converting to Catholicism is relatively uncommon, but it’s not hard to see why an anti-Catholic might choose to convert.

JL: Actually it is more common than you think. I was going to post a video line but it has been taken down. It was an Evangelical group discussing why Evangelicals are converting to Catholic and Orthodox. The following is a Catholic article.

religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/2731/evangelicals_%E2%80%98crossing_the_tiber%E2%80%99_to_catholicism

I haven’t read that one yet, but I will look into it. Chuck Colson is also one of the main public figures of the past century that caused the Evangelical meaning of “born again” to be the most ubiquitous one. Have you looked into that at all, or do you just give it a passing glance whenever you’re forced to redefine those words on Catholic terms?

JL: My understanding of the Evangelical teaching for BORN AGAIN is one receives the Holy Spirit, regenerated and born again when one FIRST BELIEVES. No Evangelical I have talked with has ever given any scripture as evidence for that tradition. Scripture tells us differently.

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 THAT HE MIGHT **SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,]

Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee. EXCEPT a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jn3:4 NICODEMUS SAITH unto him, HOW can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Jn3:5 JESUS ANSWERED, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN of water AND of the Spirit, he CANNOT ENTER into the KINGDOM OF GOD.
[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you. But **YOU WERE WASHED you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the NAME of the Lord JESUS Christ AND in the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.] We are WASHED of WATER by the WORD in the SPIRIT of God.

[Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY **he saved us BY the **WASHING of REGENERATION **and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

[Mt28:19 Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, **BAPTIZING them IN THE NAME OF the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the HOLY GHOST:]

[Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, CALLING ON THE NAME of the LORD.]

Acts2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. The PROMISE is unto you, AND to your CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]

 

[KathleenGee]

Cat,

Thanks for all your sharing. Yes, you were part of ‘Christianity Today’.

Problem with Protestants is that they see everything from the point of man, not the Holy Trinity Who provides us the communion we experience as universal Catholics. Only serious sin breaks this communion actualized in the Eucharist, restored through the sacrament of penance through the sacrament of Christ’s ministry, the priesthood.

The Eucharist is based on the priesthood. Without them, we cannot have the Eucharist the summit of our faith.

We are Ecclesial Deists. Our faith is big enough to take Christ literally at the Last Supper, replacing the Law with the Covenant of the Blood…no symbolism here but actual. And actual, sacramental priesthood chosen and consecrated in sacrament to truth and spiriri. No arguing over textual/semantic interpretations here.

You say Sola Scriptura is the work of the devil…seeing how some denominations spend alot of time denouncing the Christ’s Church to their followers, it makes me wonder. And how they misrepresent…They come on to argue, thinking that using one of our ancient Catholic teachers, they can use the Church’s members against itself…Problem is that they always misintrepret the Catholic father/ teacher because the teaching is taken out of context, out of communion, out of the true intent of the teaching, and does not support man made interpretations.

We believe Christ is big enough and great enough to chose men to manage His Church, and Christ – the perfection of all virtues Himself – chose men who still sin – to be His ministers. Christ is big enough to forgive His own ministers from their sins as he does the rest of humanity.

Some how there are presentations of Christ by Protestant teachers who make out the Catholic Church and its members are unable to receive any forgiveness by Christ, let alone ask Christ forgiveness for their sins.

This makes many of such followers close their minds with such fear, that they cannot even study early church history to separate truth from misrepresentation. A Hebrew Catholic said it was Protestantism that led to divorce and the breakdown of society.

We do not base our ecclesiology on text. We believe rather in actual, concrete communion where we all physically gather together at the banquet table of the Lord…to consume the very nourishment of Christ Himself, Who in turns fills our hearts to go forth in joy and peace to share the Good News. We become Christ’s mind, hands, feet in service, running the great race…enduring to the end for our salvation…based on the Cross.

So we as Catholics look beyond the ecclesiastics and priests who both serve the Lord and us…to see mystically the Lord at work in His church.

Years ago, I was in an archdiocese in great trevail, with movements inside working hard to build a pseudo church…Sunday Masses conducted by lay persons…after a period of orientation, the priest asked the group present how many liked the lay persons’ Eucharist services…All politely raised their hands.

Then the priest asked…'well…how many would actually want to drive 80 miles some place else for Mass…instead of staying here to attend a Sunday Eucharist?"…He was anticipating everyone to agree with the changes.

Instead, 100% raised their hands to drive 80 miles to a priest led Mass. It was another sign it is Christ Himself Who sustains the Church for those faithful to Him.

We are Catholics not because of the men operating it…afterall, the Church belongs to no one but Christ Himself…Who we retain in our hearts and souls.

We are Catholics because it is the Catholic Church who brings us to the truth and presence of Jesus Christ among us.