All Christians another twist to purgatory

[Razanir]

Pax Christi!

Try being s sports fan in western New York State sometime!

Seriously, I’ve read good argument that Purgatory is a physical place, and not just some “spiritual state” or some such. My guess is that it shouldn’t matter to us or the suffering souls. We should pray and sacritice for them regularly and often.

God bless.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Try Chicago. It’s been over 100 years since the Cubs have won the World Series.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Catholic mortal/venial sin distinction is not a legalistic one but an anti-legalistic one. It is an admission that not every single act that is not in perfect accordance with the eternal law of God merits eternal punishment in God’s eyes. In simple terms, a venial sin is a sin which does not turn man away from his last end, which is God. This is an important distinction because otherwise we would be forced either to admit with the Protestants that all sins (or even all actions whatsoever) no matter how slight merit eternal damnation because no sin is venial or admit with the universalists that everyone will be saved no matter what because no sin is mortal.

There are also legalistic understandings of sin (which are not the basis of the venial/mortal sin distinction), but that does not mean that they are wrong. The Bible is replete with imagery of God as judge, the law, punishment, covenants and so on. The notion that a doctrinal teaching is false because it is “legalistic” is a misguided notion. Evidently God did not find legal terminology inadequate when inspiring the Holy Scriptures. Who are we to say we know better than Almighty God?

I never said anything was false because it was legalistic. I also don’t see how it can be considered an “anti-legalistic” doctrine.

Is it not the belief that every sin fits neatly in one of two categories and the response we must make to the sin depends on the category it falls into?

 

[Protector]

gazelam;11418874]Does 1 Peter 4:6 have anything to do with purgatory?

(KJV) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I think we can conclude from the following verse gazelam, that unless Jesus is talking about a load of zombies burying their dead Peter is talking about unbelievers. The idea is, that having had the Gospel preached to them they would be without excuse at the Last Judgement

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Luke 9:60 (KJV)

Protector.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I never said anything was false because it was legalistic. I also don’t see how it can be considered an “anti-legalistic” doctrine.

Is it not the belief that every sin fits neatly in one of two categories and the response we must make to the sin depends on the category it falls into?

I don’t think that this is legalism anymore than the distinction between sin and good works is legalism. There is a distinction of genus between venial and mortal sin, but these are not arbitrary categories. Rather, they take into account the object of the sin. Sins that direct one’s will against love of God or neighbor are generically mortal (remember the two greatest commandments?). Otherwise, they are not mortal (i.e. they are venial) generically.

For, when the will is directed to a thing that is in itself contrary to charity, whereby man is directed to his last end, the sin is mortal by reason of its object. Consequently it is a mortal sin generically, whether it be contrary to the love of God, e.g. blasphemy, perjury, and the like, or against the love of one’s neighbor, e.g. murder, adultery, and such like: wherefore such sins are mortal by reason of their genus. Sometimes, however, the sinner’s will is directed to a thing containing a certain inordinateness, but which is not contrary to the love of God and one’s neighbor, e.g. an idle word, excessive laughter, and so forth: and such sins are venial by reason of their genus. (I-II, 88, 2)

However, the nature of a sin is not just determined by the matter of the act, but by the disposition of the agent. Thus, a sin that is generically (we might also say materially) mortal can be venial or a sin generically venial mortal depending on the circumstances.

I hardly see how this is legalism. If anything, it is reading the law according to the spirit rather than the letter. I wonder what you propose we should say instead. Maybe you can clarify things by offering your own viewpoint. Do you believe that there is no division of sins into mortal and venial? Do you believe that the Catholic basis of division is not fitting?

We have to admit some mortal/venial distinction because we both acknowledge that Christians can fall from justice. If a sin causes us to fall from justice, then it is mortal. But not all sins immediately damn us to hell. These sins are not mortal. This is an objective distinction because either we are just or unjust in God’s eyes; there is no middle option. I hope you will give your own view so we can compare.

 

[Reuben_J]

Interesting, so people who have never believed in Jesus can simply be put in purgatory for their sins and be cleansed?

Purgatory is for people who are already ‘saved’ and whose sins are confessed and regretted but not perfectly repented. It is a state of purification before one enters heaven as in ‘purified by fire so that the gold is devoid of blemishes and impurities’, for nothing imperfect enters heaven.

For the ‘unsaved’, judgment is God’s only. If their sins are too great and God judges them to eternal damnation, they would not go to purgatory.

 

[rinnie]

I once read an excellent defense of the doctrine of Purgatory, it was very convincing - except one thing - it depended on an acceptance of a legalistic view of the mortal/venal sins view held by the Catholic Church, and not many others.

As for myself it isn’t that I don’t believe in purgatory or a purgatory like state, it is that I see believing in it as unimportant to salvation, and since my Church has no teaching there, I see no point in accepting it.

So I suppose if you wanted to convince me of purgatory you’d first have to show me why my belief/disbelief in the matter, well, matters.

Okay thats fair enough. The reason belief in purgatory matters is because it plays a large part in your salvation.

Let me ask you this, if you repent and confess your sin, and are forgiven, Are you rid of that sin forever? Or could you do a true confession, have absolution and then down the line in life repeat that sin?

 

[rinnie]

I’d say that I believe in a minimalist doctrine of ‘purgatory’. Something along the lines of:

Christ forgives those who are truly sorry for their sins. Weak human beings may often be truly sorry but fail to manifest this sorrow in true conversion of life, etc. Christ, in his infinite and loving mercy may, at the point of death and judgement, perfect and complete the imperfect penitence of the contrite sinner, enabling him to enjoy communion with God in paradise.

This is truly a awesome view of what purgatory iis.

 

[rinnie]

Interesting, so people who have never believed in Jesus can simply be put in purgatory for their sins and be cleansed?

Possibly. No one can deny the mercy and Love of God. We know that Salvation is through Jesus Christ. But no where is it taught that those who do not know of him are excluded from heaven.

As long as they accept him they have until the last day to repent and accept his love. Purgatory is a place where those who accept him and he accepts them are saved.

But although they are saved and have repented sin they have a final cleansing to go through yet to make them perfect for heaven.

 

[rinnie]

Here is my HUMAN thinking for it.

Does anyone here really believe that the people they know who have died have truly reached sainthood here on earth before they passed into the next world.

I am not saying it is impossible because its possible.

But can anyone say they know people that died and do not believe they died as a Saint?

Again I am not asking you to judge as God judges, just you honest human thinking.

 

[Nine_Two]

Okay thats fair enough. The reason belief in purgatory matters is because it plays a large part in your salvation.

I understand that what happens immediately after we die is an important stage in our relationship with God, but why does believing it happens affect that relationship…

I suppose as a (far out) example, let’s say that for some reason I don’t believe in human conception - an important step, we can’t find salvation (or existence) without it having happened. Yet my disbelief does not change whether it is true or not, or that it happened. How would this lack of belief then change my chances for salvation?

Let me ask you this, if you repent and confess your sin, and are forgiven, Are you rid of that sin forever? Or could you do a true confession, have absolution and then down the line in life repeat that sin?

Some I am rid of forever, others I struggle with. Many that I repeat I am able to overcome in life, and the lives of the saints shows us that any sin can be overcome.
But I think (correct me if I’m wrong) that the heart of your question is am I likely to die still struggling with those sins, and of course the answer is yes (although I hope and pray it is a different set than what I struggle with now).

 

[rinnie]

I understand that what happens immediately after we die is an important stage in our relationship with God, but why does believing it happens affect that relationship…

I suppose as a (far out) example, let’s say that for some reason I don’t believe in human conception - an important step, we can’t find salvation (or existence) without it having happened. Yet my disbelief does not change whether it is true or not, or that it happened. How would this lack of belief then change my chances for salvation?

Some I am rid of forever, others I struggle with. Many that I repeat I am able to overcome in life, and the lives of the saints shows us that any sin can be overcome.
But I think (correct me if I’m wrong) that the heart of your question is am I likely to die still struggling with those sins, and of course the answer is yes (although I hope and pray it is a different set than what I struggle with now).

Actually you got purgatory down pat pretty good.

And here is something the Church teaches also that many don’t know.

Purgatory isn’t necessary for everyone. Sainthood can be acomplished in this life by the Sacraments given to us in the Church.

Let me think how the denial of purgatory affects our salvation. Well actually it doesn’t. But if it didn’t exist do you see how it could?

People refuse to see Purgatory as a gift not a curse from God.

We believe that not ever single human who dies, although the sin is forgiven, the reason or temptation of what caused the sin has to be washed away before one can be a Saint.

I think we can both agree it is not only sin that hurts us, but the desire to sin is also a sin.

Jesus taught us that! While we believe that its easier to not commit the act, then to cleanse the desire of the act from our mind. But again not impossible.
That is what the purging is, washing away all desire.

That is why we believe it is needed.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Interesting, so people who have never believed in Jesus can simply be put in purgatory for their sins and be cleansed?

No there is no need for the damned to “be made clean for heaven and God’s presence” .

It is most simply put,

Nothing unclean can enter Gods presence as God is separate from sin. We must be truly made perfect to be in heaven, washed of all impurity all pain all sadness all sickness all suffering.

This is what Purgatory is, God completing the sanctifying process of the faithful that is begun on earth.

 

[Nine_Two]

Actually you got purgatory down pat pretty good.

And here is something the Church teaches also that many don’t know.

Purgatory isn’t necessary for everyone. Sainthood can be acomplished in this life by the Sacraments given to us in the Church.

Let me think how the denial of purgatory affects our salvation. Well actually it doesn’t. But if it didn’t exist do you see how it could?

People refuse to see Purgatory as a gift not a curse from God.

We believe that not ever single human who dies, although the sin is forgiven, the reason or temptation of what caused the sin has to be washed away before one can be a Saint.

I think we can both agree it is not only sin that hurts us, but the desire to sin is also a sin.

Jesus taught us that! While we believe that its easier to not commit the act, then to cleanse the desire of the act from our mind. But again not impossible.
That is what the purging is, washing away all desire.

That is why we believe it is needed.

If push came to shove I’d probably say I believe in some sort of purification after death, which seems to be accepted these days as belief in purgatory. But my question, and objection, remains, why does anyone need to believe in it? Belief in something doesn’t change whether it happens or not. We need to believe in God so that we can get close to him (you can’t get close to someone you deny the existence of), but processes, such as purgatory, happen regardless of belief.

 

[Johnny777]

There is no purgatory for the believers in Christ. All who depart from this life, face the first judgement, that is, the judgement of the sheep and goats before Christ’s Royal heavenly court room.
This is when the thief (death) comes in a day and hour that no man knows to destroy (kill) your earthly house (body).

Christ being risen is tied to the commencement of the resurrection of the dead.

As Saint Paul stated why say some amongst you that there is no resurrection. If the dead rise not then Christ is not risen.

So the commencement of the resurrection of the dead is tied to Christ’s resurrection. All the Old Testament men of God were waiting asleep in Abraham’s bosom (paradise) until the messiah did show up and did rise to open their graves and take them into the new heavenly city new Jerusalem.

 

[Reuben_J]

Fortunately there is (purgatory). Otherwise what hope is there for most of us believers who are not perfect as nothing imperfect enters heaven? While it is true what you said as regard to judgment, it does not say there is no purgatory. To deny the purification before entering heaven is to deny that imperfection can enter it.

 

[Johnny777]

Who has told you that people are imperfect and that is why they need to go to a place called purgatory?

The testing ground is here in this realm, where the Holy Spirit of the risen Christ sanctifies a believer according to his sovereign will.

Again Saint Paul states that in my weakness the strength of Christ manifests.

Romans 8:11 states that it is the Spirit of Christ who prepares us a bride before our departure from this life to eternal life with Christ in heavenly new Jerusalem.

I believe what scriptures state in that the Holy Spirit performs and fulfils this role as our sanctifier and resurrector. That is why Jesus replies to his disciples in regards to salvation that with man it is impossible but with God all is possible.

Since the Spirit of Christ never leaves the true believer, he 100% insures that the faithful is prepared before his departure.

That is why Saint Paul states there is a crown of righteousness in store for me, but not also me but also you at Christ’s appearing.

Christ’s appearing is when we depart to face the first judgement.

 

[Reuben_J]

Fortunately there is (purgatory). Otherwise what hope is there for most of us believers who are not perfect as nothing imperfect enters heaven? While it is true what you said as regard to judgment, it does not say there is no purgatory. To deny the purification before entering heaven is to deny that imperfection can enter it.

correction: to admit instead of to deny. No imperfection can enter heaven. We are made perfect by the purification of our sins and thus able to enter heaven.

 

[Reuben_J]

Who has told you that people are imperfect and that is why they need to go to a place called purgatory?

The testing ground is here in this realm, where the Holy Spirit of the risen Christ sanctifies a believer according to his sovereign will.

Again Saint Paul states that in my weakness the strength of Christ manifests.

Romans 8:11 states that it is the Spirit of Christ who prepares us a bride before our departure from this life to eternal life with Christ in heavenly new Jerusalem.

I believe what scriptures state in that the Holy Spirit performs and fulfils this role as our sanctifier and resurrector. That is why Jesus replies to his disciples in regards to salvation that with man it is impossible but with God all is possible.

Since the Spirit of Christ never leaves the true believer, he 100% insures that the faithful is prepared before his departure.

That is why Saint Paul states there is a crown of righteousness in store for me, but not also me but also you at Christ’s appearing.

Christ’s appearing is when we depart to face the first judgement.

The word of God is clear on who will inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 25
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

How many of us believers exactly do it to the least of the brethrens and yet expect to go to heaven? How many times did we become indifferent to the suffering of the world and yet expect to go to heaven? We are imperfect and while being so, we sin as well. Our imperfection will be with us until the Day of Judgment. We can only expect to be purified and then enter the kingdom otherwise based on our own achievement we may as well be doomed to be considered as the goats.

 

[Kliska]

We can only expect to be purified and then enter the kingdom otherwise based on our own achievement we may as well be doomed to be considered as the goats.

I think that most Christians would agree with this. It is the time, place, and method of purification that I believe we’d argue over. Christ is the necessary and sufficient sacrifice Whose Blood cleanses us, and salvation comes by grace through faith. I think most agree on that, but the method, timing, etc… is where we tend to disagree?

 

[Reuben_J]

I think that most Christians would agree with this. It is the time, place, and method of purification that I believe we’d argue over. Christ is the necessary and sufficient sacrifice Whose Blood cleanses us, and salvation comes by grace through faith. I think most agree on that, but the method, timing, etc… is where we tend to disagree?

I have no problem with this, brother. I believe there is purification before we enter heaven, either on earth by our regret, repentant, penance and restitution for the shortcoming that we may have committed or in the next life. Purgatory is the Church teaching that this is a state of purification after life where the stain of sin have to be purified so that we will be as white as snow; it is not just being clothed with righteousness of Christ but purified internally as well so that we are worthy to be in God’s presence otherwise we would not be able to do so.

The idea is only the perfect is worthy of heaven. Thus purgatory is great grace of God for those of us who are not perfect. I am sure there are many perfect Christians who die and go straight to heaven but then again, not all Christians are.