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Pryority7
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Apo’s response to you would be…
“I don’t know what you’re talking about”
“I don’t know what you’re talking about”
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onenow1
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Hi, Mr.Ex.
Your posts and Joey’s follow ups are excellent, planting seeds is all your expected to do; maybe Pops will read these with a good pair of glasses.
2Peter 3: 16 Paul makes this point in his letters as a hole wherever he touches on these things. in all his lettters there are of course some passaages hard to understand, and these are the ones that the uneducated and unbalanced people distort in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture to there own destruction.
James 2: 24. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified.
James 2; 19-20 You believe in the one God that is credible enough, but even the demons have the same belief,and they tremble with fear. FOOL! would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless ?
Matt. 7: 16-20 You will be able to tell them by their fruits. Can people pick grapes from thorns or figs from thistles ? In the same way a sound tree cannot produce bad fruit nor a rotten tree produce good fruit. Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire. I repeat you will be able to tell them by their fruit.
Matt. 12: 50. Anyone who does the will of my father in heaven is my brother sister and mother.’
Matt. 5: 17-19 Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. In truth I tell you, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot not one little stroke is to disapper from the law until all its purpose is achieved. Therefore, anyone who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven; but the person who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great.
Matt. 19: 17 'Jesus said to him ‘why do you ask about what is good ? There is one alone who is good. But if you wish to enter into life keep the commandments.’
Matt. 25; 31-45 The sheep and the goats.
John. 3: 5 Jesus replied in all truth no one can see the kingdom of God witout being born through Water and the Spirit.
In Matt. 25. Note neither group new of their deeds or non deeds.
I choose these gospels because Peter, Matthew and James walked with Jesus and heard his teaching first hand.
And Pops as far as the Marian doctrine is concerned,Jesus had to honor his mother he was still under the old testament,
otherwise he would be guilty of sin, which of course is impossible. Using common sense would’nt you make your mother a queen if you had that ability.
ALL: I see all the stars in the heavens. NOT!
Peace
OneNow1
Your posts and Joey’s follow ups are excellent, planting seeds is all your expected to do; maybe Pops will read these with a good pair of glasses.
2Peter 3: 16 Paul makes this point in his letters as a hole wherever he touches on these things. in all his lettters there are of course some passaages hard to understand, and these are the ones that the uneducated and unbalanced people distort in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture to there own destruction.
James 2: 24. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified.
James 2; 19-20 You believe in the one God that is credible enough, but even the demons have the same belief,and they tremble with fear. FOOL! would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless ?
Matt. 7: 16-20 You will be able to tell them by their fruits. Can people pick grapes from thorns or figs from thistles ? In the same way a sound tree cannot produce bad fruit nor a rotten tree produce good fruit. Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire. I repeat you will be able to tell them by their fruit.
Matt. 12: 50. Anyone who does the will of my father in heaven is my brother sister and mother.’
Matt. 5: 17-19 Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. In truth I tell you, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot not one little stroke is to disapper from the law until all its purpose is achieved. Therefore, anyone who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven; but the person who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great.
Matt. 19: 17 'Jesus said to him ‘why do you ask about what is good ? There is one alone who is good. But if you wish to enter into life keep the commandments.’
Matt. 25; 31-45 The sheep and the goats.
John. 3: 5 Jesus replied in all truth no one can see the kingdom of God witout being born through Water and the Spirit.
In Matt. 25. Note neither group new of their deeds or non deeds.
I choose these gospels because Peter, Matthew and James walked with Jesus and heard his teaching first hand.
And Pops as far as the Marian doctrine is concerned,Jesus had to honor his mother he was still under the old testament,
otherwise he would be guilty of sin, which of course is impossible. Using common sense would’nt you make your mother a queen if you had that ability.
ALL: I see all the stars in the heavens. NOT!
Peace
OneNow1
A
apophasis
Guest
Priority7:
(1) The Cross. (a) The work Christ began and finished there and is appropriated, in full, by God to every true believer at the time of personal belief in Jesus: redemption, reconciliation and propitiation (the first two manward; the last Godward). (b) By the shedding of His blood, there on the cross, HE “made purification of sins” (Heb. 1:3b). There is no need for sins to be purified twice, once by the Son and once again by us. Nevertheless, sins are purified only by the sacrificial blood of God’s Lamb, men cannot suffer for the purification of their own sins.
(2) Scripture nowhere teaches such a place. Why would it based on #1;
(3) Paul explicitly teaches that to be absent from the body is to at Home with the Lord, and God has given each believer the Spirit as a “pledge” (an “earnest,” a “down payment”) as a guarantee of this glorious event (2 Cor. 5:5-8; cf. 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:14).
But now, “dude,” you need to move on (or you’ll get an ulcer). This isn’t the thread for this. If you’d like to PM me with your challenge I’ll read it - but be aware that unless it can trump the above it simply won’t hold water. It must be based on objective revelation, not man’s imagination or subjective reasoning.
“Dude,” that Purgatory is a religious myth is based on at least three fundamental, Biblical facts:Dude…I stayed on that thread for weeks after you dissappeared…you never responded…
Everything else you just addresessed in that post is irrelevant to the point I’M making…that you duck, hide and come out again somewhere else…namely in this thread.
Why don’t you post your response to me in the Purgatory thread here since you so claim to have answered it…
The only response you gave me was…
“I don’t know what you’re talking about”…
Be honest…give a testimony my brother, not a testiphony…
(1) The Cross. (a) The work Christ began and finished there and is appropriated, in full, by God to every true believer at the time of personal belief in Jesus: redemption, reconciliation and propitiation (the first two manward; the last Godward). (b) By the shedding of His blood, there on the cross, HE “made purification of sins” (Heb. 1:3b). There is no need for sins to be purified twice, once by the Son and once again by us. Nevertheless, sins are purified only by the sacrificial blood of God’s Lamb, men cannot suffer for the purification of their own sins.
(2) Scripture nowhere teaches such a place. Why would it based on #1;
(3) Paul explicitly teaches that to be absent from the body is to at Home with the Lord, and God has given each believer the Spirit as a “pledge” (an “earnest,” a “down payment”) as a guarantee of this glorious event (2 Cor. 5:5-8; cf. 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:14).
But now, “dude,” you need to move on (or you’ll get an ulcer). This isn’t the thread for this. If you’d like to PM me with your challenge I’ll read it - but be aware that unless it can trump the above it simply won’t hold water. It must be based on objective revelation, not man’s imagination or subjective reasoning.
A
apophasis
Guest
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
In the context of the cross God does not prevent sin from happening. The purpose of the cross was to provide God with the judicial power to completely and forever forgive the sins of those who believe in Jesus. Thereby exchanging eternal damnation for the gift of eternal life (see Jn. 3:14-18:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Heb. 9:26b "…but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Continued to next post:
What? How does what I say here:Talk about restructuring the entire gospel to be centered on the efforts of man.
…translate into your statement above???Reconciliation is provided, by God, through the finished, once for all, reconciliatory work of Christ on the cross. And it is God Himself who “appropriates” this work, in full, to the believer at the time of personal faith in Christ.
Does not one enter into salvation “through faith?” "For by grace (not “graces) you have been saved through faith……” Salvation is never based on the efforts of man, but on the efficacious work of the Son on the cross. Men eternally benefit by His work “through faith” (“not as a result of works, that no one should boast”)So let me get this straight, you’re saying that God is powerless to save us unless we let him save us?
Oh? So it’s impossible for you to actually sin? Why does the Apostle John state differently (1 Jn. 2:1)?Christ sacrifice on the cross applies throughout all human history-- past, present, and future. This means that Christ’s sacrifice not only redeems us after we sin. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross also prevents us from sinning too.
Christ’s crucifixion is not “timeless.” The Son was born into this cosmos, this world system, into this time/space continuum. His sacrificial work had a beginning and an end. The Gospel accounts even give the hours of the day. He then (in real time, consecutive order) died, was literally removed from the cross, buried, and rose bodily from the dead three days later. All this was accomplished in this world’s time. It’s an historical event, an historical FACT. God had His judgment day on sin two thousand years ago.Christ crucified is the singular timeless event by which God distributes all graces to us apophasis. If Christ had not experienced this sacrifice on the cross, no one would have had access to God’s grace, preventive or redemptive, ever.
I did answer you. You just didn’t like the answer. Remember the blind man Jesus healed and the Pharisees kept asking him how He healed him because they simply refused to listen to him because he wouldn’t give them answer they wanted (John 9:27ff)?Now if you disagree with this, fine. But at least make an effort to answer the question I’ve repeatedly asked…
Quote:
Simple Question # 1: How does God prevent sin from happening?
In the context of the cross God does not prevent sin from happening. The purpose of the cross was to provide God with the judicial power to completely and forever forgive the sins of those who believe in Jesus. Thereby exchanging eternal damnation for the gift of eternal life (see Jn. 3:14-18:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Heb. 9:26b "…but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Continued to next post:
A
apophasis
Guest
Continued from previous post:
Continued to next post:
Stupid? I suppose if I actually said “ultimately” a man prevents himself from sinning. But I quoted you straight from the instruction of Paul who said,"Gal 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."That’s hardly a “token” reference to the Spirit.Consequently, the answer you’ve provided so far amounts to our own human effort preventing sin from happening-- which is nonsense. You’re basically ascribing some ‘token’ reference to the Holy Spirit and yet saying that man ultimately prevents himself from sinning-- which is, theologically speaking, plainly stupid.
What does any of this have to do with unbelievers?And even if you give the ‘token’ reference to the Holy Spirit, you still have not answered how people who do not believe in Jesus are prevented from sinning since they do not have access to the Holy Spirit.
What? Do you not know the difference between believers and unbelievers? Are you not aware that there is a difference?In other words, if a non-Christian does not have the indwellling of the Holy Spirit, then how does the Holy Spirit prevent non-Christians from sinning?
My contention is that God has poured out all grace via Christ’s death on the cross-- both preventive and redemptive (past, present, and future). I’ve been very clear about this too.
Quote:
Titus 3:4-7
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
This is written to believers, Ex., not unbelievers. That’s why Paul writes, “He saved us…” (believers), not by our works of righteousness, but according to His mercy (the cross), by the washing of regeneration (i.e., rebirth, “being born again” in Christ"), renewed by the Holy Spirit whom He poured out upon us (believers) richly through Jesus Christ our (believer’s) Savior. And in verse seven he teaches that believers (not unbelievers) are now justified by grace and made heirs of eternal life.He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
He doesn’t. Why would He?Now how does God prevent sin from happening in the life of those who do not believe in Jesus even though these people (according to your theology) have no access to the Holy Spirit?
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A
apophasis
Guest
Continued from previous post:
When an unbeliever turns from his unbelief to belief in Christ, he stands completely reconciled before God BECAUSE of Christ’s reconciliatory work on the cross:2 Cor 5:19 "…namely, that God was in Christ (i.e., on the cross) reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."Hence, when one believes the “word of reconciliation” he is at that moment reconciled to God.
Even you, in your other thread, are now allegorizing Jacob’s twelve sons and what he said to them in Gen. 49 as now pertaining to Catholic and Protestant churches. This is no different than when Mormons claim that “Joseph,” in Eze. 37:19, prophetically refers to Joseph Smith. Get my point?
Originally Posted by apophasis:
But on this major doctrine of the cross I think you’ve totally missed the mark. And to miss the mark on this major, N.T. doctrine is like cancer, it shows up in many other parts of one’s theology.
Response:
Hmmm…so basically we Catholics are spreading a cancerous gospel in this particular regard. More to the point, your suggestion that we’ve ‘totally missed the mark’ also implies that our theology is totally built upon ‘sin’.
You have a real problem with context, “Ex.” First of all I was directly addressing Michael, not the whole Catholic church. Secondly, “miss the mark” in the context I used the phrase was that of not fully understanding the Biblical doctrine of divine reconciliation in light of the cross of Christ. In other words he errors, and “error begets error.”Sin equals missing the mark, does it not?
When an unbeliever turns from his unbelief to belief in Christ, he stands completely reconciled before God BECAUSE of Christ’s reconciliatory work on the cross:2 Cor 5:19 "…namely, that God was in Christ (i.e., on the cross) reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."Hence, when one believes the “word of reconciliation” he is at that moment reconciled to God.
As I said, Ex., you have a problem with CONTEXT. I said the allegorical method of interpreting Scripture is “the mother of all cults.” Every cult that uses the Bible invariably allegorizes Scripture in order to seemingly make those Scriptures refer to them.You’ve been very vocal in your denunciation of Catholic teachings. You essentially said that our theology is void of the Holy Spirit and the mother of all cults.
Even you, in your other thread, are now allegorizing Jacob’s twelve sons and what he said to them in Gen. 49 as now pertaining to Catholic and Protestant churches. This is no different than when Mormons claim that “Joseph,” in Eze. 37:19, prophetically refers to Joseph Smith. Get my point?
Well, this is true not only of Catholic Amillennialism but Protestant as well. This is the problem for anyone who utilizes the allegorical method of interpretation. In order to understand God’s present program for the Church and His future program for national Israel one must interpret the Scriptures literally. IOW, allow God’s Word to speak for itself. The context itself will let one know if you’re to take it nonliterally (allegory, figure of speech, etc.). Do you not approach all literature in like manner? How else could you possibly know what the author him/herself intended to communicate? We just can’t spiritualize or allegorize the Scriptures at whim. A literal interpretation puts a check on the imaginations and false doctrines of men.You also said that we would never understand Paul or God’s present program for the Church and future program for Israel, correct?
Easy partner, take two aspirin, relax and meditate on Gal. 5:16, 22 and 23. You accused me of saying things I never said and its emotionally effecting you, not me. Be good to yourself.You’ve made some tremendous accusations against Catholic theology and yet your own theology seems to be akin to a maggot infested corpse giving praise to the Lord of the Flies. In other words, your theology isn’t really amounting to anything except the attraction of more flies as it rots in the irredeemable grave. It’s not really amounting to much of anything of value theologically speaking and is spiritually twice dead-- causing much division in the body of Christ.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
I have been shadowing apophasis and sanduskey for a while.
One or the other make the claim that we don’t take the verses of their choosing literally. What they don’t understand is that we do take them literally but not in the single verse literal but in the context of the entire New Testament.
I find it extremely hypocritical that they use the “literal” argument when they themselves will not take whole sections of verses literally and they even shy away from those topics that are very literal without exception.
So here is my challenge to Apophasis and Sanduskey and the more experienced Apologists here:
I ask that someone start a new thread on those issues listed before and invoke the name of both Apophasis and Sanduskey so they will be obligated to enjoin:
Are you ready to rumble?
One or the other make the claim that we don’t take the verses of their choosing literally. What they don’t understand is that we do take them literally but not in the single verse literal but in the context of the entire New Testament.
I find it extremely hypocritical that they use the “literal” argument when they themselves will not take whole sections of verses literally and they even shy away from those topics that are very literal without exception.
So here is my challenge to Apophasis and Sanduskey and the more experienced Apologists here:
I ask that someone start a new thread on those issues listed before and invoke the name of both Apophasis and Sanduskey so they will be obligated to enjoin:
- Petra, Petros, Cephas argument.
- The Keys and the power to Bind and Loose argument
- The Power to Forgive Sins argument.
- Whether Christ established a visible church or an invisible chruch.
Are you ready to rumble?
P
Pryority7
Guest
**P7:And once again you’ve ignored the statement I made regarding you conveniently leaving out a verse in that reading…too legalistic for you, isnt’ it?“Dude,” that Purgatory is a religious myth is based on at least three fundamental, Biblical facts:
(1) The Cross. (a) The work Christ began and finished there and is appropriated, in full, by God to every true believer at the time of personal belief in Jesus: redemption, reconciliation and propitiation (the first two manward; the last Godward). (b) By the shedding of His blood, there on the cross, HE “made purification of sins” (Heb. 1:3b). There is no need for sins to be purified twice, once by the Son and once again by us. Nevertheless, sins are purified only by the sacrificial blood of God’s Lamb, men cannot suffer for the purification of their own sins.
(2) Scripture nowhere teaches such a place. Why would it based on #1;
(3) Paul explicitly teaches that to be absent from the body is to at Home with the Lord, and God has given each believer the Spirit as a “pledge” (an “earnest,” a “down payment”) as a guarantee of this glorious event (2 Cor. 5:5-8; cf. 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:14).
But now, “dude,” you need to move on (or you’ll get an ulcer). This isn’t the thread for this. If you’d like to PM me with your challenge I’ll read it - but be aware that unless it can trump the above it simply won’t hold water. It must be based on objective revelation, not man’s imagination or subjective reasoning.
Apo: I have no idea what you’re talking about.
You never responded to this apo…This is what I’m talking about. You dissappeared from the thread after this…why don’t you address it? It’s God’s Word, right? Well, please…enlighten us pagans…
2 Corinthians 5:10…once again, too legalistic?
P7
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