All have gone astray; all alike are worthless

[NoelFitz]

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, there is not even one (Rom 3:12).

I have problems, and in a number of posts I have expressed them. They all seem linked together. Basically, if God is good, and all he created is good, how do people end up in hell?

I started a post about Catholics going to hell, but others not so, because most Catholics reject Church teaching believing in contraception and not attending Mass or the sacraments

The present Pope plays done the pains of hell, but…

I even see that it is considered now sinful to vote Democrat, but one who was young in the 60s, when many Irish homes had pictures of JFK, St John XXIII and the Sacred Heart, and one who is now watching TV programs on the Kennedy family, I remember it was Camelot and the US represented ideals. Now in the US Catholic politicians are vilified and Catholics reject their own. In a thread I emphasized while Catholics believe in their fellowship (Communion of Saints) outside the US, but in the US they seem to Illustrate extreme individualism and Protestant evangelicalism.

I was disappointed, since I am one who loves the US, having lived there in the late 60s, and one who listens to WNYC and WGBH on the radio regularly. When I was there Catholics voted solidly for Democrats, knowing it was the party of the working people, while Republicans represented the rich, as they still do.

However along came Covid-19 and I see the heroism, courage and dedication of people all over the world and see how all people need to love each other to survive. Depriving the poor of health care anywhere allows the spread of viruses.

When I see first responders risking their lives to help their fellow people I see courage and believe people are good.

I am reminded of 9-11 when first responders rushed into burning buildings to their death, while others tried to escape.

Let us believe in the goodness of God and his creation, as best we can. Let us hope we will all end up in heaven and understand that behind all the troubles God is good.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I even see that it is considered now sinful to vote Democrat,

In the opinion of some people, many of whom post an inordinate amount on the Internet.

There are at least an equal (if not more ) number of Catholics who don’t think it’s a sin to vote Democrat, and some of them even think it’s a sin to vote Republican. And yes, that includes a good many people who are at Mass every Sunday. Many of them are lay ministers, and some of them are clergy.

If you have not personally been to the States recently, and preferably experienced different parishes and different parts of the country, it’s best not to generalize about politics or Catholics from what you read on Internet forums. Likewise, I do not generalize about all the Catholics in other countries based on the posts of a few.

 

[Limoncello4021]

I am sorry you are so haunted by this topic. Perhaps it is because you are not American but lived here in the 60s and seem to have nostalgia for that time. Well, I am American and lived through the 60s too. That was a long time ago now. The Democratic and Republican parties have substantially changed over the last 60 years, as all parties do. One cannot compare them to that time anymore. Issues are different. No Catholic I know will vote for someone just because he or she is “Catholic” on paper. How foolish would that be? Rather, we vote for politicians who support matters we care about.
Yes, good people of all races, creeds, and nationalities exist. In times of crisis, the best of people comes out as well as the worst of people. I am surrounded myself by heroic people on a daily basis.

 

[Vico]

…
I have problems, and in a number of posts I have expressed them. They all seem linked together. Basically, if God is good, and all he created is good, how do people end up in hell?

…Let us believe in the goodness of God and his creation, as best we can. Let us hope we will all end up in heaven and understand that behind all the troubles God is good.

Being created good does not mean created perfect.

All will not attain heaven, however we know those that will not are those that choose malice. God desires that all be saved, but by allowing free will, so that individuals can express charity and therefore love freely and be able to be partakers of the divine nature, there is also free expression of malice.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” ( in statu viae ) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection …

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. …

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. …

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

460 The Word became flesh to make us " partakers of the divine nature ":“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

 

[adamhovey1988]

Are you okay? Do you need someone to talk to?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

That verse from Romans is a quote from the OT. Paul goes on to say that faith in Christ saves us all.

For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[NoelFitz]

lived here in the 60s and seem to have nostalgia for that time.

I was young then and recently married.

*Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive *
But to be young was very heaven.
― William Wordsworth, [The Prelude]

Catholics from what you read on Internet forums

We are in a global village now. What happens in China and Washington affects us. I believe in truth. It is there and can be discerned. We cannot opt out from using our minds. I believe Trump is in the US. I know educated American friends who support him, but I do not know why.

Being created good does not mean created perfect.

So true. But the free world is led by a ‘stable genius’.

If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.1 Jn 1:8–9.

The idea about us choosing to go to hell does not satisfy me, as it implies that God’s grace and providence are less powerful that our free will and the devil. Are we redeemed, bought back from the devil’s ownership? Did God fail in his attempt to save us? God made us and knew that many would end up in hell as passions incline us to evil, yet he went ahead. Perhaps not!

We cannot know why God does what he does, The clay cannot tell the potter what to do.

Are you okay? Do you need someone to talk to?

Thanks. I appreciate your concern. I have a spiritual adviser for over 30 years. He understands me, and there is no use in repeating over and over again the same thing.
Basically all we can do is our best and hope in God’s mercy

But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ Lk 18:13.

 

[po18guy]

Massive misunderstanding and conflation, IMO! Americans are much more political than religious. A large percentage of Catholics in particular. Some would say they are grossly hypocritical. JFK had almost nothing to do with the Catholic Church after confirmation. He expressly suppressed that identity so as to be electable. Oh, he popped in whenever there were cameras present.

For all its faults, the opposition party in the US aligns more closely with Christian teaching. The (D) party has been co-opted by radical progressive leftists. It would be known as the “Socialist Labor Party” or “Revolutionary Worker’s Party” in other political systems. Look throughout Latin America and you will see those labels on political parties whose platforms are essentially identical to the (D) party in America.

Sad, but the old (D) is dead, but not buried. Yet, it persists in a form of political “brand management” that makes it acceptable by name.

 

[Vico]

…
The idea about us choosing to go to hell does not satisfy me, as it implies that God’s grace and providence are less powerful that our free will and the devil. Are we redeemed, bought back from the devil’s ownership? Did God fail in his attempt to save us? God made us and knew that many would end up in hell as passions incline us to evil, yet he went ahead. Perhaps not!

We cannot know why God does what he does, The clay cannot tell the potter what to do.
…

We can know why, when it is revealed by God as it was by Jesus Christ.

Salvation is conditional, even with the atonement of Jesus Christ. God cannot save anyone against their will but provides grace so through free cooperation it can occur. It is so because a demonstration of love of God is necessary condition of the Beatific Vision and that love cannot be forced.

 

[Buks]

You seem like a remarkably thoughtful person. There was a heyday in America; IMO it probably ended sometime before the millennium, and now we’re scrambling to remain a distinct nation.
As regards hell, I’d have to say that the freedom granted by the Creator may be the key to understanding.