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fbl9
Guest
has any one ever met a person so holy and full of God’s grace that you are filled with the Holy Spirit just by that person greeting you?
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E
estesbob
Guest
Everytime I pray the rosary!has any one ever met a person so holy and full of God’s grace that you are filled with the Holy Spirit just by that person greeting you?
M
mozart-250
Guest
The problem with “implicit” readings of Scripture is that there seems to be no limit to stuff that folks can claim is “implicit” in Scripture. The question in my mind then becomes whether it is really there or whether this is a creative reading of Scripture. There seems to be no limit to the number of ways in which God’s Holy written word can be read creatively.Luke 1:28-35 is not explicit but implicit about the Immaculate Conception. “Hail, full of grace” was an extraordinary greeting, so much so that Mary herself was deeply troubled over it (Lk 1:29). Why would Mary be concerned over the way the angel greeted her if Lk 1:28 carried no special significance?
If Lk 1:28 has special significance in your opinion, then what is it?
Anyway, I don’t like arguing over the meaning of Scripture, but I would think that anybody would be troubled and pondering having just been greeted by an angel with such a greeting. Fortunately the angel explains himself in verse 30-33, which would be my explanation of verse 28. But again, I find arguing over Scripture.to be quite distasteful and something I prefer not to engage in.
I am not making the same argument others have in this thread. In fact I am not citing Romans 3:23 as the silver bullet that definitively disproves the immaculate conception, because for starters I think that proving something definitively false is much more difficult than folks claim it to be. And also as I said, the prooftext approach to Scripture leaves me cold.Regarding Romans 3:23 “all have sinned” : What sins have been committed by newborn infants who die shortly afterwards? What about any child who dies below the age of reason? By defintion, they can’t sin since sinning requires the ability to reason and the intention to sin. This is a biblical concept, see Rom 9:11: “though they [Jacob and Esau] were not born yet and had done nothing either good or bad…”
At the same time however, I need a very, very good reason before I can in good faith exclude a person or a class of people from this verse.
No. Otherwise you could get me to believe in the Book of Mormon.Do you accept extrabiblical sources as being on par with Scripture? Yes or no?
Extrabiblical sources do not claim to be inspired by God in entirety. However, I do believe that extrabiblical sources (properly used) can guide us into the proper interpretation of God’s holy written word.
The comparisons to the trinity and Christmas are only valid if I were to claim that unless something or some practice is explicitely supported by the Bible, it must be definitively false. There are some folks that believe this, but not me. In fact I am not claiming the Immaculate Conception is definitively and 100% false…although I will freely admit I am skeptical on it.I was not changing the topic but simply pointing out the similarities between the Immaculate Conception (though it is implied in Scripture), the word Trinity, Dec. 25th as Christmas day, etc., etc., etc…
If you reject the Immaculate Conception because you can’t find scriptural evidence for it, then you must be consistent with your apolgetics style and also reject using the word “Trinity” and the celebration of Christmas on December 25th because neither can be found in Scripture also.
Do you reject using the word “Trinity” and celebrating Christmas on December 25th?
If you don’t, then why can’t you use the same rationalization to support the Immaculate Conception?
But anyway, all that I am saying is that I want very good and substantial reasons to believe that something is true, particularly when I can easily locate verses in the Bible that seem to indicate the contrary. Otherwise, you can get me to believe just about anything.
G
Goth_Catholic
Guest
Let me try to explain something. Mary was conceived of sinful human seed, but at the moment of conception, freed of sin, because she is the new Eve. Eve was born from Adam, who flesh was sinless, and so too was Jesus born from Mary, formed from her flesh, that also needed to be sinless. By their fruits you shall know them. A rotten tree cannot bare good fruit. Mary undid Eve’s sin, so that Jesus could abolish all sin. Only one without sin could undo Eve’s. Eve bore sin, Mary bore rempetionIf she was conceived of human seed (read, had an earthly Father) then she was born spiritually dead in sin. There is no exception to man born of Adam and the universal condition of sinfulness inherited from him. Again, that is precisely why the virgin borth was necessary in the incarnation.
Or are you saying that Mary is the only begotten daughter of God?
“For he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden”
-She is a daughter of Adam
“For he that is holy hath done unto me great things”
-He has chosen her womb and because of this saved her from original sin, fashioned her as the new Eve. He will call her Mother.
P
peary
Guest
The problem with “implicit” readings of Scripture is that there seems to be no limit to stuff that folks can claim is “implicit” in Scripture. The question in my mind then becomes whether it is really there or whether this is a creative reading of Scripture. There seems to be no limit to the number of ways in which God’s Holy written word can be read creatively.
**You’d make one very lousy theology student **LOL
I am not making the same argument others have in this thread. In fact I am not citing Romans 3:23 as the silver bullet that definitively disproves the immaculate conception, because for starters I think that proving something definitively false is much more difficult than folks claim it to be. And also as I said, the prooftext approach to Scripture leaves me cold.
To be “filled with Grace” is to find the absence of sin.
The comparisons to the trinity and Christmas are only valid if I were to claim that unless something or some practice is explicitely supported by the Bible, it must be definitively false. There are some folks that believe this, but not me. In fact I am not claiming the Immaculate Conception is definitively and 100% false…although I will freely admit I am skeptical on it.
Christmas, Easter, Trinity and Incarnation are not in the Bible. So, why do you believe in any of them?.
B
believers
Guest
Hi Goth, I’m a bit late on this but this must not go unanswered. Mary did not undo the sin of Eve. That is not in the Bible for all those who are reading this post… I challenge anyone to find ONE verse saying so.No,** she was saved from the sin of Adam, because she became the new Eve.** Eve sinned first. Mary in turn became the New Eve by first undoing the sin of Eve to make way for Jesus, as the new Adam, to abolish the sin of Adam.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s (Adam) disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (Jesus) shall many be made righteous.
K
KJK80
Guest
So Eve just plain doesn’t count?
Per the CCC
511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation”. She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature”. By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.
Per the CCC
511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation”. She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature”. By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.
G
Goth_Catholic
Guest
You just did my work for me. According to Rom 5:19, We are sinners because of Adam. He sinned because of Eve. Had Adam not sinned, we would not be sinners, so in order to abolish Adam’s sin, which is the original sin, Eve’s must be first undone. Mary undoes Eve’s sin by saying “Be it done unto me according to thy word.”Hi Goth, I’m a bit late on this but this must not go unanswered. Mary did not undo the sin of Eve. That is not in the Bible for all those who are reading this post… I challenge anyone to find ONE verse saying so.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s (Adam) disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (Jesus) shall many be made righteous.
B
believers
Guest
I want to know… Does ANY Roman Catholic agree with what Goth has just posted about Mary undoing Eve’s sin?Let me try to explain something. Mary was conceived of sinful human seed, but at the moment of conception, freed of sin, because she is the new Eve. Eve was born from Adam, who flesh was sinless, and so too was Jesus born from Mary, formed from her flesh, that also needed to be sinless. By their fruits you shall know them. A rotten tree cannot bare good fruit. Mary undid Eve’s sin, so that Jesus could abolish all sin. Only one without sin could undo Eve’s. Eve bore sin, Mary bore rempetion
“For he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden”
-She is a daughter of Adam
“For he that is holy hath done unto me great things”
-He has chosen her womb and because of this saved her from original sin, fashioned her as the new Eve. He will call her Mother.
K
KJK80
Guest
I will repeat myself… per the CCCI want to know… Does ANY Roman Catholic agree with what Goth has just posted about Mary undoing Eve’s sin?
511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation”. She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature”. By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that “with God nothing will be impossible”: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace:140
Code:As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143
M
Michael_Joyce
Guest
Check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Look under the section about Mary . Go to the sub section " Immaculate Conception"( items 491 & 492 ). It explains it precisely. Seek the truth and you shall find it. God bless you.
F
fbl9
Guest
the gospel written by St.Luke 1;38…be it done…what is to be done God’s will. did eve say yes to God’s will being done? of course not she disobeyed God.Hi Goth, I’m a bit late on this but this must not go unanswered. Mary did not undo the sin of Eve. That is not in the Bible for all those who are reading this post… I challenge anyone to find ONE verse saying so.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s (Adam) disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (Jesus) shall many be made righteous.
T
The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
^And to add to what is above:
Remember that through Jesus all things were created. Every bit of salvation history has been accomplished through His wisdom. He had contemplated the role of every holy person before they even existed, this includes Mary.
God’s use of Mary as the means to manifest His Son in the flesh was not just some convenient circumstance. Mary was in the mind of God from the very beginning!
And Jesus, being the only man who could ever fulfill the Law perfectly-in this case to honor thy mother and father-did so when He created Mary. He honored her, He made her free from sin and He made her full of His grace. There could be no doubt that this woman, this new Eve who was to be the mother of all those who live in Christ Jesus, that when told by Gabriel that she would bear the Son of God to the world, that her reply would be no less than what Luke recorded in his Gospel: “I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me according to thy word.”
As far as the mis-translation as to “All”-the Latin Pas-I direct you to Romans 15:14;
“I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”
So are you saying that the Christians in the Roman church have a complete knowledge? That they know everything absolutely?
Hardly because God is the only one who could possess ALL knowledge.
The Latin Pas is a word used to describe “of many kinds, or of many sorts.” This actual meaning help make the scripture make more sense. Did the Roman Christians have ALL knowledge? No. Did they have knowledge of many kinds? I would say that is more likely.
The same word is used in Romans 5:12. The “all” used is not an absolute. Jesus was born as a man, born of a woman and born under the Law, yet Jesus was sinless. So obviously the “all” of 5:12 is not absolute.
Remember that through Jesus all things were created. Every bit of salvation history has been accomplished through His wisdom. He had contemplated the role of every holy person before they even existed, this includes Mary.
God’s use of Mary as the means to manifest His Son in the flesh was not just some convenient circumstance. Mary was in the mind of God from the very beginning!
And Jesus, being the only man who could ever fulfill the Law perfectly-in this case to honor thy mother and father-did so when He created Mary. He honored her, He made her free from sin and He made her full of His grace. There could be no doubt that this woman, this new Eve who was to be the mother of all those who live in Christ Jesus, that when told by Gabriel that she would bear the Son of God to the world, that her reply would be no less than what Luke recorded in his Gospel: “I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me according to thy word.”
As far as the mis-translation as to “All”-the Latin Pas-I direct you to Romans 15:14;
“I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”
So are you saying that the Christians in the Roman church have a complete knowledge? That they know everything absolutely?
Hardly because God is the only one who could possess ALL knowledge.
The Latin Pas is a word used to describe “of many kinds, or of many sorts.” This actual meaning help make the scripture make more sense. Did the Roman Christians have ALL knowledge? No. Did they have knowledge of many kinds? I would say that is more likely.
The same word is used in Romans 5:12. The “all” used is not an absolute. Jesus was born as a man, born of a woman and born under the Law, yet Jesus was sinless. So obviously the “all” of 5:12 is not absolute.
B
believers
Guest
According to the Word of God, Adam knowingly disobeyed God and that is how sin entered the world. Eve, on the other hand, was deceived because she did fully understand the rules. Eve said they weren’t supposed to touch the fruit. That’s not what God said to them. God said Don’t EAT the fruit.You just did my work for me. According to Rom 5:19, We are sinners because of Adam. He sinned because of Eve. Had Adam not sinned, we would not be sinners, so in order to abolish Adam’s sin, which is the original sin, Eve’s must be first undone. Mary undoes Eve’s sin by saying “Be it done unto me according to thy word.”
B
believers
Guest
sorry got run
M
Michael_Joyce
Guest
I don’t believe that Our Lady’s role was to undo any ones sin. That was Jesus’ mission not Her’s regardless how sinless she was. She did though co-operate with His mission by virtue of the infinite merits of her Immaculate Heart. This is my belief.
P
peary
Guest
EARLY CHURCH FATHERS MADE THE COMPARISON BETWEEN MARY AND EVE LESS THAN A HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE ASCENSION OF CHRIST:
**Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. *Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ *[Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 A.D. 189]).
"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree . Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 A.D. 210].
Pseudo-Melito
“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 A.D. 300]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 A.D. 361]).**
**Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. *Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ *[Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 A.D. 189]).
"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree . Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 A.D. 210].
Pseudo-Melito
“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 A.D. 300]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 A.D. 361]).**
P
peary
Guest
**Ambrose of Milan
“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 A.D. 377]).
“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).
“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 A.D. 387]).
Augustine
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 A.D. 401]).
…
“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 A.D. 415]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary A.D. 400]).
“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).
Gregory of Tours
“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 A.D. 584]).
“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8). **
“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 A.D. 377]).
“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).
“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 A.D. 387]).
Augustine
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 A.D. 401]).
…
“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 A.D. 415]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary A.D. 400]).
“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).
Gregory of Tours
“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 A.D. 584]).
“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8). **
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estesbob
Guest
Its basic Catholic DoctrineI want to know… Does ANY Roman Catholic agree with what Goth has just posted about Mary undoing Eve’s sin?
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mozart-250
Guest
That is why I am a computer geek. In my profession we must think logically and avoid speculation without evidence.You’d make one very lousy theology student LOL
Why should I believe that is the case?To be “filled with Grace” is to find the absence of sin.
But let us say for now this is true. It still does not mean that Mary never sinned in her entire lifetime, much less delivered from original sin from conception.
I think I answered that question previously. But repeating myself…Christmas, Easter, Trinity and Incarnation are not in the Bible. So, why do you believe in any of them?.
The concept of the trinity is supported by Scripture even if the word trinity is not found in Scripture. Theologians come up with words for concepts. I do not have any problem with that as long as the concept is supportable.
Just because something or some practice is not explicitely supported by Scripture does not mean that it is definitively false. There are issues that Scripture is totally silent on.
As opposed to this issue where I really feel I would be doing violence to a clear teaching of Scripture unless I am provided clear and convincing evidence as to why I should make an exception for Mary to the word “all”. That I can not do in all good conscience.
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