All have sinned.. including Mary.

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NDfan said:
That’s a good one I like that:)

Consider this from Irenaeus:

Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race…

Now it’s interesting that Irenaeus includes Mary with the rest of the human race as receiving salvation from Jesus. Jesus paid the price for sinners. Hmmm guess that makes Mary a sinner.
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Iraneus doesnt speak for the Church
 
Lampo said:
I have some homework then.
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Yeah check it out
Maybe not, but the Catholic Church doesn’t go by the false doctrine of sola scriptura. The Scriptures don’t say “Trinity” either, but it is true that God is three persons in one divine nature.
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Sola Scriptura is not a false doctrine and the trinity is in scripture. The word may not be but the elements to support it certainly are. The word trinity is the work of the Council of Nicea in an effort to define the relationship of GOD the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all of which appear in scripture. Sola Scripture just says you can’t create doctrine that contradicts scripture. The trinity doesn’t seem to do that.
Clear to you maybe.
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Well considering I went to school for this I feel comfortable with my deduction.
 
NDfan said:
I’m not guessing. You also need to stop mis-quoting Jesus. It’s not the church that Jesus says would be guided into all truths. Jesus says the Holy Spirit will guide “us”, you and me into all truths.
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Based on your personal interpretation. The Spirit tells me otherwise. How do we resolve this.?
 
estesbob said:
Iraneus doesnt speak for the Church
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I find it interesting that many Roman Catholics on these threads always quote the ECFs as being authoritative and frequently use their quotes to refute Protestant claims. Yet when something they say doesn’t support a RCC claim then all the sudden they can’t speak for the church. Irenaeus existed before the Roman Catholic church ever did. Irenaeus is the one who insisted on using 4 Gospels and certified that Luke and John were authentic. Initially the church was only going to use Matthew and Mark because they were the most widespread and the most read. Now let’s see what Gospels are in the Bible and how many:hmmm: Guess Irenaeus does speak for the church:thumbsup:
 
estesbob said:
I spent four years in the seminary and minored in theology. i think your dedcution is wrong. How do we resolve this?
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I majored in theology and completed Bible college. So what would you like to resolve?
 
Elizabeth conceived in the natural way-she was filled with the Holy Spirit (St.John also) when Mary visited her during her confinement. If y’all are Catholic please state the facts-others seeking truth do not need to be confused or disgusted with all the arguing and conflicting opinions.

I know I am wearied of the ignorance
and tired of the bickering and snide remarks
this cross is leaning hard…
 
estesbob said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I familar with this. I’m asking further on in the gospel accounts where Jesus protects her from sin?

estesbob
I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and he has revealed to me that the proper interpretation of this verse supports the Immaculate Conception…
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i do to and the HS told me the opposite what He told you. So who is right? 🤷
 
Jimdandy said:
Elizabeth conceived in the natural way-she was filled with the Holy Spirit (St.John also) when Mary visited her during her confinement. If y’all are Catholic please state the facts-others seeking truth do not need to be confused or disgusted with all the arguing and conflicting opinions.

I know I am wearied of the ignorance
and tired of the bickering and snide remarks
this cross is leaning hard…
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Jim is this the belief of the RCC? Someone stated earlier that the belief was Elizabeth conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit but was not considered the Son of GOD, obviously. That was the first I ever heard that. I can’t seem to find it though. Perhaps you could shed some light. That would be Jim Dandy to the rescue:)
 
"Wherefore, in humility and fasting, we unceasingly offered our private prayers as well as the public prayers of the Church to God the Father through his Son, that he would deign to direct and strengthen our mind by the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner did we implore the help of the entire heavenly host as we ardently invoked the Paraclete. Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: “We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Above is the official definition of the Immaculate Conception by Blessed Pope Pius IX. Pay attention to the part I bolded.
Here is a link to a good article in the Catholic encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
 
NDfan said:
I find it interesting that many Roman Catholics on these threads always quote the ECFs as being authoritative and frequently use their quotes to refute Protestant claims. Yet when something they say doesn’t support a RCC claim then all the sudden they can’t speak for the church. Irenaeus existed before the Roman Catholic church ever did. Irenaeus is the one who insisted on using 4 Gospels and certified that Luke and John were authentic. Initially the church was only going to use Matthew and Mark because they were the most widespread and the most read. Now let’s see what Gospels are in the Bible and how many:hmmm: Guess Irenaeus does speak for the church:thumbsup:
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Your problem is that you do not realize that we depend on three things to determine the truth-scripture, tradition and the teachings of the magestrium. The proponderence evdience from of all three proves the Immacualte Conception. The doctrine does not collaspe because one can find a ECF who disagreed.
 
[Jim is this the belief of the RCC? Someone stated earlier that the belief was Elizabeth conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit but was not considered the Son of GOD, obviously. That was the first I ever heard that. I can’t seem to find it though. Perhaps you could shed some light. That would be Jim Dandy to the rescue] QUOTE

I will refer you to Luke 1 36-37 & 41

sometimes people recall the passages in scripture out of sequence.

Hope that helps
Chau
 
elvisman said:
Because that passage is a classic case of hyperbole in order to make a point.
Do you REALLY believe that ALL have sinned?
What about the severly retarded or people with other severe mental disorders.
What about babies? Toddlers? Have they ALL sinned?
I think not.

By the grace of God, having lived a sinless life was possible for the Blessed Mother because she was spared from Original Sin.
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Jesus did not sin. He became the second Adam who was obedient even unto death on a cross. Jesus is God. All others born of Adam are sinners. It is not that they sin, it is that they have a sin nature (which came when Adam fell) so anyone born of Adam on down is born with a sin nature with no way to get out except through being born again of God Through Jesus Christ. For the Bible says to those who have been born again that we have been taken out of the kingdom of Satan and put into the Kingdom of God.
 
Why was there an original Adam and Eve (well, I guess the answer to that question is obvious…)

But just a New Adam, and no New Eve?
 
NDfan said:
That’s a good one I like that:)

Consider this from Irenaeus:

Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race…

Now it’s interesting that Irenaeus includes Mary with the rest of the human race as receiving salvation from Jesus. Jesus paid the price for sinners. Hmmm guess that makes Mary a sinner.
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NDfan -
The Catholic Church has NEVER said that Mary wasn’t saved by Jesus. The Church says that Mary was saved BEFORE she was born - at conception.

This analogy has already been used on this thread but I’ll use it again to illustrate the point to you:
You and I can liken our salvation as having fallen into a puddle of mud. Jesus pulls us out of the mud of sin.
Mary was saved FROM falling into the puddle in the first place.

Here’s something for you to think about: If you believe that the Ark of the covenant had to be pure and lined with gold to hold SYMBOLS of God - how much more pure would the Ark of the NEW Covenant have to be to ACTUALLY carry God - PHYSICALLY within her?
 
sapamarogi said:
Jesus did not sin. He became the second Adam who was obedient even unto death on a cross. Jesus is God. All others born of Adam are sinners. It is not that they sin, it is that they have a sin nature (which came when Adam fell) so anyone born of Adam on down is born with a sin nature with no way to get out except through being born again of God Through Jesus Christ. For the Bible says to those who have been born again that we have been taken out of the kingdom of Satan and put into the Kingdom of God.
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I already addressed this a few pages back.
SOME protestant posters have indicated different beliefs than you.
They claim that infants actualy CAN and DO sin.
That is the tragedy of Protestantism. Too many differing and quarrelling interpretations - or shall I say, MISinterpretations . . .
 
NDfan said:
We have the Holy Spirit in us after we get baptized. How is it that we survive??
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are we not washed clean of sin when we are baptised?we are at that time in a state of complete grace. what then happens when we sin? the grace leaves us.God no longer dwells in one who is in a state of sin.yet you maintain Mary was in a state of sin and Jesus who lived on her flesh and blood could not have sin in Him??some seem to forget that they had no choice in who would be their mother.Jesus being God picked who was to be His mother.and thus is able to bestow on her the gift of salvation the moment she was concieved.remember Jesus’s words about new wine skins we are made anew when baptised are we not?
 
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