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KJK80
Guest
My bad.
- Status
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Alexius
Guest
In my opinion, the Blessed Theotokos didn’t personally sin because she was given the grace to overcome it.
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Lampo
Guest
You are in very good company, VERY GOOD, with your opinion!
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Singinbeauty
Guest
I never say that Mary sinned or didn’t because I wasn’t there, therfore I cannot say either way.
Could God have done this for Mary, sure. No doubt about it. God can do anything.
Could He have entered the world through a woman who is just like you and me? Of course, God can do anything.
Does it affect my Faith to say for certain either way? I don’t think so because… God can do anything. And as long as I recognize this, I think God knows where my heart is…
Could God have done this for Mary, sure. No doubt about it. God can do anything.
Could He have entered the world through a woman who is just like you and me? Of course, God can do anything.
Does it affect my Faith to say for certain either way? I don’t think so because… God can do anything. And as long as I recognize this, I think God knows where my heart is…
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Lampo
Guest
I disagree. I think it does affect your faith and here is why. For example – you and I have doctrinal differences. Which means, both of us cannot be right on those issues where we differ. So, at least one of us has to be wrong on Mary being sinless. The one who is wrong – whether it’s you or it’s me – is believing a lie, and we know who the father of all lies is, don’t we? In other words, when one believes in a false doctrine, he/she is believing Satan instead of Christ. Could that affect one’s salvation? Could that affect one’s relationship to his fellow man? I believe it can, and the Bible supports me on that. Doctrine is important, because truth is important, because Jesus Christ is the Truth.
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KJK80
Guest
'cept somebody is bound to be disappointed when they get to Heaven.
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mozart-250
Guest
I’ll get to that below. Let me say that even if you get me to accept the notion of Apostolic Sacred Tradition (the word apostolic being key), you will have issues nailing this down in such a manner that it is cleanly identified and separated from any other tradition. Otherwise you could get me to believe anything by claiming it is Sacred Tradition.
But this is besides the point of this thread.
Oh so you view the books of the New Testament as tradition. I’ve always just thought of it as God using His people to accomplish His divine purposes. Which is something I don’t have a problem with. But since I’ve never thought of it that way, I would have to give it some thought. It would be unfair to reject it out of hand.
I get the impression that Catholics read more into how the books of the New Testament were chosen than I do. And I’ve never quite gotten the point to be honest.
But this is all besides the point of this thread.
So your choose your faith because it is 100% logically proven to you. I would love to see anybody logically prove their faith 100% true. I contend that it can’t be done. I know I couldn’t do it.
But start a thread and try it. That would be interesting.
But that is another topic.
For starters I would ask you how you know your interpretation of that passage is 100% correct. And your answer probably would be that is what your church teaches. In the end, it will boil down to your interpretation of evidence, not logical proof.
This would be very interesting.
You see I think very much like a lawyer on these things. Logically proving anything is much more difficult than it seems.
But this is off topic too.
Well for starters I do not look upon Romans 3:23 as the prooftext that definitively disproves the possibility of the IC. I have said I despise the prooftext approach to Scripture. That probably differentiates me from other Protestants.
But I do look at Romans 3:23 as solid evidence against the IC that could only be countered by equally solid evidence in favor of it. Throughout this whole thread, this type of evidence has been lacking in my mind. It was quite easy to accept the whole set of arguments that Catholics use to justify the IC and come up with an alternative set of explanations given those assumptions that do not have the problem of Romans 3:23. The fact that I was able to do so quite easily reinforces my skepticism on this matter.
Remember I am looking for evidence that a certain claim of faith originates from the apostles apart from the written word of God. Otherwise you can get me to believe anything.
Quotes 300 years after the fact in support of a dogma (that have alternative explanations) are not convincing. Quotes closer to the source are more convincing.
I am quite sure a neutral historian would have the same approach to discerning historical truth.
…continued…
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Show me where I have said SHE IS SINFUL…
I haven’t said it because I can’t know for sure. So I can’t be wrong since I don’t take a stance on something I can’t prove…
M
mozart-250
Guest
Of course the difference here is that it is quite easy for me to open up my Bible and see the Trinity while I’m left scratching my head at where precisely the IC is in the Bible.
Let’s cut to it. For this argument to be convincing you have to somehow bridge the gap from “Hail Mary full of grace” to “never have sinned in her entire lifetime” and “conceived without original sin”. Furthermore, there must be no alternative explanations (that do not have the Romans 3:23 problem) that would also work.
Even if I grant you your points above, you still are not anywhere near bridging this gap.
I prefer to use the term apostolic sacred tradition, because that is the only type of sacred tradition that we are told to hold to.
Anyway, I’m not going to say this has ceased. In fact I have issues with folks saying anything I see in the Bible has ceased without good reason. But that is a separate issue.
However, in order to me to accept something as apostolic, sacred tradition apart from the Bible, the proponent of this view is going to have to lay out a good case that this item of “sacred tradition” actually comes from the apostles. Otherwise, you can get me to believe just about anything you want me to believe just by saying it is Sacred Tradition. And that is somewhere I just don’t want to go.
Have I said that Scripture is the final authority on all religious matters?
What I have said though is that I know of no other authority that is equal to Scripture. There is a logical yet subtle difference between the two statements.
But you know what…let’s cut to it. In both belief systems the sources of faith that underlies these belief systems are assumptions that can not be logically proved. I’ve read enough arguments both ways, and nobody has come anywhere near close to proving their point.
So instead I look at evidence.
But that is a separate topic too.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
How would I be disappointed? If I do not sway either way then I won’t be disappointed because I didn’t invest in something I could neither prove or disprove. I will walk up to her, give her a HUGE hug and then thank her for being willing to do God’s work for the hope of the rest of us…'cept somebody is bound to be disappointed when they get to Heaven.
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lurdes
Guest
but none of us have ever been FULL OF GRACE?
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Lampo
Guest
Maybe you didn’t. Do you believe in the God? Do you believe in the Trinity? Have you ever bought a can of baked beans?
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KJK80
Guest
I sincerely appreciate your attitude here–but I never said YOU would be disappointed… You just happened to bring up in my mind that there will be disappointed people in heaven.How would I be disappointed? If I do not sway either way then I won’t be disappointed because I didn’t invest in something I could neither prove or disprove. I will walk up to her, give her a HUGE hug and then thank her for being willing to do God’s work for the hope of the rest of us…
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Ok, easy as it is, you lost me…
K
KJK80
Guest
Don’t you know, the thing, about the baked beans? OK neither do I.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Sorry, I get on a thought process and I run with it! LOL…I sincerely appreciate your attitude here–but I never said YOU would be disappointed… You just happened to bring up in my mind that there will be disappointed people in heaven.
There will be many disappointed people, even those who will find protestants / catholics (depending on which group they are anti) in Heaven.
I know there are a few catholics who I owe big hugs to when we meet up there. Despite their very surprised faces! LOL
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Singinbeauty
Guest
LOL, ok - at least I am not the only one who got lost there…
K
KJK80
Guest
As much as you may think it–Catholic’s are (should) not
(be) judging you to Hell.
Here’s the deal–for me–as a Catholic, God is completely central to my life. My wife, my kids come a close 2nd, but God comes first.
Now here’s the rub for most Protestant’s… also as a Catholic, the church is central for my understanding of, and relationship with God. (Keep in mind I was born and raised and was, as an adult, a many generation anti-Catholic Protestant).
Therefore, without the church, as a devout Catholic (in my opinion) our understanding of God is no longer complete.
Therefore, though God is completely central, the Catholic Church and everything about it (including the Bible) goes with it… Additionally, the Bible is equal to the Holy Tradition that COMPLETES and COMPLIMENTS (perfectly) the Bible… Therefore it’s a complete fullness of faith, all encompassing. It’s something I never, ever experienced as a Protestant. And I would have never understood it or accepted it without being Catholic. However, now that I am, I understand now, I get it.
I don’t think you can ever explain in words, what it means to be Catholic. Which is why, I think, very few if any of the discussions here ever actually bear much fruit… The thought process as a Protestant or other non-Catholic is much different than the thought process as a Catholic.
I don’t think either are “brain washed” or “blindingly following” anything… it is just, in fact, a very different way of looking at things, and not very compatible at its base…
OK that’s all, I shut up now!
One more thing, I grew up in Washington state, how’s the rain doin’? I miss it.
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Lampo
Guest
LOL…Okay, that was kinda funny wasn’t it? You said that you can’t be wrong on something you don’t take a stance on. I take it that you have bought a can of baked beans before. Could you prove that there were baked beans in the can you bought? You don’t know for sure there are baked beans in that can. You have faith in the label. You could be wrong about them being baked beans in that thare can. I’m just trying to show that you have taken a stance on something you can’t prove.LOL, ok - at least I am not the only one who got lost there…
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Singinbeauty
Guest
No, I do not think that you believe I won’t be there… but there are SOME who do. I can’t wait to prove 'em wrong… Hopefully - God and I have a LOT of work to do…As much as you may think it–Catholic’s are (should) not
(be) judging you to Hell.
Here’s the deal–for me–as a Catholic, God is completely central to my life. My wife, my kids come a close 2nd, but God comes first.
Now here’s the rub for most Protestant’s… also as a Catholic, the church is central for my understanding of, and relationship with God. (Keep in mind I was born and raised and was, as an adult, a many generation anti-Catholic Protestant).
Therefore, without the church, as a devout Catholic (in my opinion) our understanding of God is no longer complete.
Therefore, though God is completely central, the Catholic Church and everything about it (including the Bible) goes with it… Additionally, the Bible is equal to the Holy Tradition that COMPLETES and COMPLIMENTS (perfectly) the Bible… Therefore it’s a complete fullness of faith, all encompassing. It’s something I never, ever experienced as a Protestant. And I would have never understood it or accepted it without being Catholic. However, now that I am, I understand now, I get it.
I don’t think you can ever explain in words, what it means to be Catholic. Which is why, I think, very few if any of the discussions here ever actually bear much fruit… The thought process as a Protestant or other non-Catholic is much different than the thought process as a Catholic.
I don’t think either are necessarily “brain washed” or “blindingly following” anything… it is just, in fact, a very different way of looking at things, and not very compatible at its base…
OK that’s all, I shut up now!
One more thing, I grew up in Washington state, how’s the rain doin’? I miss it.
It’s been weird lately (the weather here in WA)… in the last week or so we have had rain, snow, sun… sheesh! But I love the green so I don’t mind the rain.
Now, if my roof would only stop leaking I could actually enjoy the rain again!!!- Status