All have sinned.. including Mary.

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justasking4 said:
The same way you do with your fallible interpretation…👍
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But I don’t rely on my fallible interpretation. 🤷 So you could you answer the question now that you know I don’t rely on my fallible interpretation?
 
MrS said:
Yes, Mary needed a Savior, and she says as much. But a Savior does not remove your free will to sin. Jesus came to reopen the gates of heaven so that all mankind “could have a chance” to spend eternity there with God.

Mary required this “re-opening” also. And this is NO indication that she sinned.

“Full of Grace”, in its perfect past participle, as used in the infallible Scriptures, however, IS the indication that she was always free of sin. That sin, original sin, was simply removed for her, by God, before her conception. Nothing is impossible with God.

Mary did grow older. The Church has made no position of whether she was assumed prior to, or at, or right after her “death”… only that “at the end of her earthly life” she was assumed… unless you have evidence of her burial place as with all the Apostles, and numerous other Christians.
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The problem with the Full of Grace statement is that it is taken from the word Kecharitomene. This word is also used in Ephesians 1:6:

to the praise of his glorious grace (Kecharitomene), with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

So all of us are blessed with Kecharitomene. Are we all sinless? Nope!!
 
NDfan said:
The problem with the Full of Grace statement is that it is taken from the word Kecharitomene. This word is also used in Ephesians 1:6:

to the praise of his glorious grace (Kecharitomene), with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

So all of us are blessed with Kecharitomene. Are we all sinless? Nope!!
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Is it true that “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14?
 
NDfan said:
to the praise of his glorious grace (Kecharitomene), with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

So all of us are blessed with Kecharitomene. Are we all sinless? Nope!!
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Yes, we are all redeemed, and our sins are made white as snow. We became that way after our conceptions, Mary was born that way, which was why she was greeted by Gabriel in this way.
 
And of course the reason why is the reason stated earlier. That to which God is joined is made pure, not by righteousness, but by grace. Therefore, when Mary was chosen as the God-Bearer she was made pure by grace and redeemed from original sin, as we are now pure before God.
 
Not to derail, but when you understand the reason why Mary was born in a state of grace, you understand why the Eucharist is real. We are joined with God as Mary was joined with her Son in the Eucharist by becoming one with His flesh.
 
Lampo said:
Is it true that “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14?
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Lampo no that’s not true. The same grace that is used to describe Jesus in John is the same grace used to describe Stephen in Acts. The word is pleres charitos which literally means full of grace. Kecharitomene used for Mary literally means “one who has been graced”, it doesn’t literally mean “full of grace”. The full of grace comes from the Latin Vulgate to English translation. Highly favoured is a closer english interpretation for kecharitomene.

The word used in Ephesians is echaritosen which means someone who has graced bestowed to them. I think I may have posted that kecharitomene is in Ephesians which is a cut and paste error on my part. That’s what I get for trying to take a short cut in typing:) Both words have a similar meaning which was the point I was trying to make.
 
believers said:
The Vatican wants you to believe that sin is just a stain and that this stain can be washed away with water. That’s not what we read in the Bible. The sin we received from Adam is judgment of condemnation. That means we all go to hell by default unless we are born-again spiritually. 1.) Where in the Bible does it say we are only to believe the Bible as the sole source for our lives? Chapter and verse, please. 2.) Your understanding of “the Vatican” is wrong, as Jesus died for our sins, so that’d be BLOOD, with the water after, following His command. Catholic believe in this atonement. Yet, on your profile you claim to be an ex-Catholic. Did your catechesis lack something, as this is something school children know. 3.) Who put together the books in the Bible?
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honeysuckle said:
Not to derail, but when you understand the reason why Mary was born in a state of grace, you understand why the Eucharist is real. We are joined with God as Mary was joined with her Son in the Eucharist by becoming one with His flesh.
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Well the Eucharist is a different discussion but let me say that once you understand the Jewish culture of the seder meal and afikomen part of the meal you will see why Jesus was speaking symbolically. Read Christ in the Passover and that will help you. If you’d like to discuss further create a thread and I will explain more.
 
justasking4 said:
For you to claim it is incorrect would mean you have the correct infallible interpretation. Do you have that and where i can find it?
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The Catholic church has never been limited by Sola Scriptura and has accordingly not had the need to give infallible intererpretations. I fact I belLIEVE the Church has issued definitive interpretations of a grand total of 3 verses(or perhaps 5)

This thread is a perfect example of the problems inherent in trying to cipher ones Faith out of their personal interepretation of Scripture. endless verse wars over issues tha can never be resolved as there is no acknowledged authoirty except for a nebulous Spririt who appear to take great delight in giving different, often contradictory, versions of the trurth to those he “indwells in”

.
 
estesbob said:
The Catholic church has never been limited by Sola Scriptura and has accordingly not had the need to give infallible intererpretations. I fact I belLIEVE the Church has issued definitive interpretations of a grand total of 3 verses(or perhaps 5)

This thread is a perfect example of the problems inherent in trying to cipher ones Faith out of their personal interepretation of Scripture. endless verse wars over issues tha can never be resolved as there is no acknowledged authoirty except for a nebulous Spririt who appear to take great delight in giving different, often contradictory, versions of the trurth to those he “indwells in”

.
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Estes that it so untrue. The RCC has issued complete interpretations for the entire Bible. That is the purpose of the teaching Magisterium. Where do you get 3 verses from??
 
NDfan said:
Estes that it so untrue. The RCC has issued complete interpretations for the entire Bible. That is the purpose of the teaching Magisterium. Where do you get 3 verses from??
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They have? Can you point us to where?
 
NDfan said:
Well the Eucharist is a different discussion but let me say that once you understand the Jewish culture of the seder meal and afikomen part of the meal you will see why Jesus was speaking symbolically. Read Christ in the Passover and that will help you. If you’d like to discuss further create a thread and I will explain more.
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I guess all thse Jews who abandoned him in John 6 lacked this insight also.
 
NDfan said:
The problem with the Full of Grace statement is that it is taken from the word Kecharitomene. This word is also used in Ephesians 1:6:

to the praise of his glorious grace (Kecharitomene), with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

So all of us are blessed with Kecharitomene. Are we all sinless? Nope!!
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It is HIS GRACE which is always and forever… from which each of us is blessed.

It could not be translated …“to the praise of his full of grace, with which he has made us all full of grace…”

He blesses us with/from that grace.

Mary, however, is addressed as THAT Grace, not someone blessed from it.
 
NDfan said:
That’s what I get for trying to take a short cut in typing:) Both words have a similar meaning which was the point I was trying to make.
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not so… the Greek is very explicit with its vocabulary.
 
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