All heathens to Hell?

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DonQuichote1235

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Hi all,

I was wondering…since baptism is required to go to Heaven, does that mean that all (adult) heathens instantly to go to Hell when they die (let’s say hindus or muslims)? Also a lot of Western people don’t baptize their children anymore or are themselves not baptized (a couple of my friends). Will they go to Hell as well when they die? Thanks!

Greetings DonQuichote!
 
No, it does not mean that all non-Christians automatically go to Hell.

This is what the Catechism says (#847):
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
 
But for example atheists or heathen in the Western world (ignorance of faith is a little difficult in this part of the world) will go to Hell then when they die?
 
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If someone dies without faith in Christ, they cannot be saved.

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43
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Baptism is also the only known means where God has promised to open the way of salvation:

CCC
1257…The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit…”
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We also acknowledge, however, that:

CCC
1257…God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
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Based on this and other factors, the common teaching is that the grace of baptism can be provided through an explicit or even implicit desire for it (see CCC 1259-1260), provided said desire is motivated by supernatural faith and charity.
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith:
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APPENDIX E: The First Ottaviani Intervention (as cited in Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 16, footnote 19)

Going even further, we also acknowledge that for those seeking truth with an upright conscience:

CCC
848…in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him…
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DonQuichote1235 said:
But for example atheists or heathen in the Western world (ignorance of faith is a little difficult in this part of the world) will go to Hell then when they die?
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Just because you’re in the “west” doesn’t mean you know the gospel. There are a lot of very bad examples, who can easily turn people away from Christianity.

WE cannot judge hearts and souls. Only God can do that. Preoccupation with how many others may go to Hell is unhealthy.
 
angel12 said:
Just because you’re in the “west” doesn’t mean you know the gospel. There are a lot of very bad examples, who can easily turn people away from Christianity.

WE cannot judge hearts and souls. Only God can do that. Preoccupation with how many others may go to Hell is unhealthy.
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I was one of them myself… right in the heart of a Catholic heavy city, oddly. Thankfully, I did learn by my teens.

I mean, I knew the name Jesus, but didn’t know the Gospel or who he actually was. And when I finally heard, it changed my life.

But I really pity those atheists and agnostics who DO know so much “head knowledge” about the Gospel, and yet remain obstinate.
 
Good point–the Church teaches God alone can evaluate our culpability (there’s a reason we have a divine judge, after all). Here’s a couple holy Popes on this.

St. John Paul II:
Certainly, the condition “through no fault of their own” cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone.

Bl. Pius IX:
Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things?
 
In addition to God being the divine judge, I should remind what “Satan” really means: The accuser. The adversary of man. Not merely the adversary of God, but the adversary of man. It’s legal language. The bloodthirsty prosecutor.
 
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There has been development of doctrine on this issue. You’re posts come across as if the Second Vatican Council never happened and the Catechism of the Catholic Church was never issued. We hope for the salvation of non-Catholics through means known only to God. The language that Holy Mother Church, the living magisterium, uses in the Catechism is much gentler than your language. No where does the word “rare” appear. Perhaps salvation of non-Catholics is rare…but I sincerely hope that is not the case. The vast majority of non-Catholics have not even the remotest inkling that the Catholic Church might be the one true Church.
 
Spot on, @twf! :+1:t3:

As to the original question-
it is way above the pay-grade of any human being to say who is or is not in heaven or hell.
In fact, I have a feeling that many people are going to be very surprised as to where they end up and with whom. :roll_eyes:
 
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Vatican II exists whether you like it or not.

You are advancing a position that contradicts what the Catechism of the Catholic Church now states and setting yourself and your opinions up against the Magisterium, again.

Stop it!!
 
Where did we say “all”?

Are you saying not to follow the official Catechism of the Catholic Church? That would be to separate yourself from the Church.
 
Quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church is hardly “hostility concerning tradition.”
 
I have no problem with tradition. I have a problem with people who pit their version of tradition against what the Church actually teaches.
 
The Church has the right to expand and correct her understanding of things.
Rome has spoken.
I will put my trust in Holy Mother Church, now, in the 21st century.
 
The bolded part, especially.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
 
We are not talking about Dogma here though, we are talking about disciplines and doctrines and they can be expanded and nuanced.
 
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The landscape dramatically changed. It’s not easy to apply a mentality of old Europe, where the Church was… what’s the word… prolific? No… it’s on the tip of my tongue. But where the church was so engrained in the consciousness back then that anything outside of it was easier to point to.

Now it’s far more complicated. This idea that you can condemn every single Christian in a pluralistic society and so many intangibles that raise them in different way… this idea that you can condemn them all is out of time. Vatican II was an attempt at speaking to this new world.
 
Amen to this. There is no need to post things from centuries ago when the Church has spoken to this directly, and RECENTLY.
And solidly.

The bottom line is…no one here or anywhere can definitively say who gets to heave and who does not.
Pray for mercy.
 
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