All I Want Is Evidence

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So lets say for example venerating images…if churches starting venerating images or even having images, you would think people would get upset…
Perhaps the best example comes from Letter 51, as quoted from Jerome, From Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis, in Cyprus, to John, Bishop of Jerusalem. This letter originates around the year 400 AD. Epiphanius, a bishop, wrote about how he ripped an “icon” of a wall and why
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When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ’s church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have s ent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort — opposed as they are to our religion — shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A than of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offense unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge.”
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I placed the link in the section below, it has been posted on here before so I believe I can link it without sanctions.
 
or a council forbidding it…
Held early in the fourth century at Elliberis, or Illiberis, in Spain, a city now in ruins not far from Granada. It was, so far as we know, the first council held in Spain, and was attended by nineteen bishops from all parts of the Peninsula. The exact year in which it was held is a matter of controversy upon which much has been written. Some copies of its Acts contain a date which corresponds with the year 324 of our reckoning; by some writers the council has accordingly been assigned to that yearCanon xxxvi (placuit picturas in ecclesia esse non debere ne quod colitur et adoratur in parietibus depingatur) has often been urged against the veneration of images as practised in the Catholic Church.”
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www.confrontingcatholicism.com
 
wildrumpus said:
The Bible itself documents this kind of arguing, WAY before the Church was even created!

I would recommend that you stop looking for answers from people and pray, pray, pray. Pray out loud! Pray with passion! Pray the Holy Spirit gives you the answers you need.

Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences between you instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If you tried to find your commonalities instead of your differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe you wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.
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I do and the Holy Spirit has made me feel it is very important to focus on Jesus. And I focus on Him by trying to understand why people reject HIS Church.

I agree that sometimes we focus too much on our differences, but we cannot ignore them either. I actually said this same thing to someone that we should focus on our commonalities. It is true, our differences and dissension is a huge reason why non-believers do not take Christianity seriously.

Anyways…I focus on Him in many ways in a given day and when I visit this forum I focus on Him by defending His Church. My faith life is a dynamic one. Ecumenism is important, but so is Apologetics.

Satan will keep laughing if we ignore our differences though. Jesus “cries” because we are not fulfilling His prayer that we all be one just as He and the Father are One.

Thanks for the concern!
 
ralphinal said:
Then why are the EO so worked up about it being wrong?
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I’m having trouble finding the right words. 😉
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ralph:
I understand why they are mad that we added it,
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I don’t.
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ralph:
but why do they hold that it is incorrect?
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Latin has a different meaning to “proceed” than the Greek.

We believe the HS proceeds from the Father and Son, in the Latin meaning of proceeds. Theologically speaking about the Trinity, Both Catholic and EO recognize that the HS doesn’t originate from the Son, only the Father.

What probably would make the EO happy re: "proceeds"is if we said the HS proceeds from the Father through the Son.
 
steve_b said:
I’m having trouble finding the right words. 😉

I don’t.

Latin has a different meaning to “proceed” than the Greek.

We believe the HS proceeds from the Father and Son, in the Latin meaning of proceeds. Theologically speaking about the Trinity, Both Catholic and EO recognize that the HS doesn’t originate from the Son, only the Father.

What probably would make the EO happy re: "proceeds"is if we said the HS proceeds from the Father through the Son.
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Now, another question is if it is our job to find a translation that makes them happy or not.

In the end, it is much more about politics that theology.
 
sambos671 said:
Primarily the fact that scriptures speak of the church as his bridegroom time and again.
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A mystical understanding?
sambo:
It never referrences Mary in this way. So it would seem she is no more a special bride than any of us.
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In a mystical way how do you explain the following

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to send her away quietly. But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18-20 RSV)

And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. (Luke 1:35 RSV)
 
ralphinal said:
Now, another question is if it is our job to find a translation that makes them happy or not.
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🤷 We’ll see how the Church decides.
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ralph:
In the end, it is much more about politics that theology.
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I’ve been in on those discussions in the past. Nobody budges. As I said earlier, both the Greek and the Latin meanings are correct. But the EO won’t leave it alone and when it comes up, the threads always seem to devolve into a food fight.
 
sambos671 said:
Primarily the fact that scriptures speak of the church as his bridegroom time and again. It never referrences Mary in this way. So it would seem she is no more a special bride than any of us.
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This is true. The Church is the Bride of Christ. Mary was the Spouse of the HS.
 
steve_b said:
Now the birth took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to send her away quietly. But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18-20 RSV)
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Who’s the biological father ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), october 25, 2008
 
guanophore said:
This is true. The Church is the Bride of Christ. Mary was the Spouse of the HS.
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Nowhere. And I mean nowhere in Sacred Scriptures does it ever mention or alludes to Mary (as blessed as she is) as the bride of the Holy Spirit. Also indicating that the Church is the bride of christ and Mary is the Bride of the Holy Spirit is boardering on the seperation of the Trinity they remember are homoosious with each other. I don’t even believe that the deposit of faith even addresses this issue.
 
steve_b said:
A mystical understanding?

In a mystical way how do you explain the following

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to send her away quietly. But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18-20 RSV)

And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. (Luke 1:35 RSV)
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The Holy Spirit also came upon King Saul and left after he lost favor with God. The Holy Spirit came upon Samson. etc… Obviously the Holy Spirit operated in power and grace so that Jesus could be concieved. Also note that the Holy Spirit told Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife. Now God would be breaking his own commandment about adultery. You’re over thinking this verse.
 
wildrumpus said:
The Bible itself documents this kind of arguing, WAY before the Church was even created!

.
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Would you please tell me what you are referring to when you say the Bible documents this kind of arguing? You must mean the Old
Testament since the Church existed before the New. I just can’t think of you might mean?
 
sambos671 said:
Nowhere. And I mean nowhere in Sacred Scriptures does it ever mention or alludes to Mary (as blessed as she is) as the bride of the Holy Spirit. Also indicating that the Church is the bride of christ and Mary is the Bride of the Holy Spirit is boardering on the seperation of the Trinity they remember are homoosious with each other. I don’t even believe that the deposit of faith even addresses this issue.
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catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=4270&CFID=15916212&CFTOKEN=54842158

campus.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/h-spirit.html
 
JMJ_coder said:
Did you even bother to read them? They are quoting directly from the Popes and the Saints.
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To conceive," as Kolbe notes, can be used in two ways in regard to the divine processions. First, as an act of the intellect whereby one “conceives” an idea or concept; and this is the way Thomas uses it to describe how the Word proceeds from the Father.15 Second, as an act of the will, which Thomas describes as an "impulse and movement toward an object."16 Thomas says “the procession of the will [of Love in the Trinity] is . . . by way of impulse and movement toward an object.” In this way we may say that love is “conceived” between two persons. This is the way Kolbe uses the term to describe the procession of Love in Holy Trinity. This procession, he says, can be given the proper name of Uncreated, Eternal Immaculate Conception, which describes the act of love (an act of the divine will) flowing eternally between the Father and the Son.
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This is still speculative. Just because the Pope says something doesn’t mean its not speculative. Unless is spoken Ex Cathedra. Which this wasn’t. I find the Mary being married to the HS to be runreasonable for two reason. 1) God would break his own law by giving her to Joseph in marriage and 1) it sounds too much like these heretics that Ireaneus dealt with. How different is that then when Ireaneaus spoke against the Valentinians
from Christ; and at other times still as derived from Anthropos and Ecclesia. And he declares that the Holy Spirit was produced by Aletheia(5) for the inspection and fructification of the AEons, by entering invisibly into them, and that, in this way, the AEons brought forth the plants of truth.
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or to Ptolomy and Colorbarrsus
Finally, when he produced those whom he had previously thought of, these were named Ecclesia. Anthropos, by speaking, formed Logos: this is the first-born son
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sambos671 said:
This is still speculative. Just because the Pope says something doesn’t mean its not speculative. Unless is spoken Ex Cathedra. Which this wasn’t. I find the Mary being married to the HS to be runreasonable for two reason. 1) God would break his own law by giving her to Joseph in marriage and 1) it sounds too much like these heretics that Ireaneus dealt with. How different is that then when Ireaneaus spoke against the Valentinians or to Ptolomy and Colorbarrsus
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It is not speculative, but an affirmation of what the Church has always taught. Again, the Church does not hold that every doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in Scripture. We have a Deposit of Faith that is comprised of both Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium who interprets. You seem to have the erroneous opinion that the only things in Catholicism that must be believed are those that are explicitly defined ex cathedra by the Pope - that is not true. There is so much more.

Also, you quotes from Irenaeus don’t seem to hold any relevance. The first one I cannot find - source please. The second one deals with Gnosticism and not on Mary or the Holy Spirit.
 
sambos671 said:
The Holy Spirit also came upon King Saul and left after he lost favor with God. The Holy Spirit came upon Samson. etc… Obviously the Holy Spirit operated in power and grace so that Jesus could be concieved.
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If you can’t see the difference between your examples I’m not sure what to say. Conception of Jesus in Mary’s womb happened after Mary said yes. And the HS overshadowed her.
sambo:
Also note that the Holy Spirit told Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife. Now God would be breaking his own commandment about adultery. You’re over thinking this verse.
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You agree that Jesus is the bridegroom and the Church is the bride of Christ…correct?

The Church is made up of people. People we’re talking about aren’t invisable. They are corporeal beings. Therefore, All people in the Church are the bride of Christ, and Jesus is the bridegroom…correct?

Following your argument to the conclusion

no one in the Church could get married to anybody without breaking God’s commandment about adultry.

Obviously one can be the bride of Christ AND still get married
 
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