All I Want Is Evidence

[ralphinal]

We’ll see how the Church decides.

I’ve been in on those discussions in the past. Nobody budges. As I said earlier, both the Greek and the Latin meanings are correct. But the EO won’t leave it alone and when it comes up, the threads always seem to devolve into a food fight.

You bring up an excellent point. We say that either way is fine. They will not conceed the point, as they were not involved in the addition, even though it was an EO Church that had it first.

I still say it is more political and hard feelings than theological.

 

[tGette]

The Bible itself documents this kind of arguing, WAY before the Church was even created!

I would recommend that you stop looking for answers from people and pray, pray, pray. Pray out loud! Pray with passion! Pray the Holy Spirit gives you the answers you need.

Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences between you instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If you tried to find your commonalities instead of your differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe you wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.

I also had to let you be aware of the thread I started a while back!

Let’s Talk About Something Amazing!

 

[steve_b]

:sambos671 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

*The Holy Spirit also came upon King Saul and left after he lost favor with God. The Holy Spirit came upon Samson. etc… Obviously the Holy Spirit operated in power and grace so that Jesus could be concieved. *

Conception of Jesus in Mary’s womb happened after Mary said yes. And the HS overshadowed her.
sambo:

Also note that the Holy Spirit told Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife. Now God would be breaking his own commandment about adultery. You’re over thinking this verse.

You agree that Jesus is the bridegroom and the Church is the bride of Christ…correct?

The Church is made up of people. People we’re talking about aren’t invisable. They are corporeal beings. Therefore, All people in the Church are the bride of Christ, and Jesus is the bridegroom…correct?

Following your argument to its conclusion

no one in the Church could get married to anybody without breaking God’s commandment about adultry.

Obviously one can be the bride of Christ AND still get married

Another point that needs to be made is, Jesus is Mary’s only child. Yet she is mother to all those who follow her son.[Rev 12]

 

[RobinSebas]

There are many incidents of dissention from what the church was trying to teach. Orthodox would recognize this as would protestants. Origen discented, Jerome discented, Apollinarius discented, Tertullian discented, Nestorius discented,John Chrysotom discented. Does this answer your questions?

Dissension, the first one was about whether gentiles should be admitted into the Church. Nobody split the church over that.

 

[sambos671]

It is not speculative, but an affirmation of what the Church has always taught. Again, the Church does not hold that every doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in Scripture. We have a Deposit of Faith that is comprised of both Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium who interprets. You seem to have the erroneous opinion that the only things in Catholicism that must be believed are those that are explicitly defined ex cathedra by the Pope - that is not true. There is so much more.

Also, you quotes from Irenaeus don’t seem to hold any relevance. The first one I cannot find - source please. The second one deals with Gnosticism and not on Mary or the Holy Spirit.

The quotes from Ireaneaus relates in this way that in order to explain Jesus in their theology they had to relate Mary to an Aeon or an aspect of the Divine palorama. I think sometimes Catholicism does this. In order to explain Jesus they over think Mary and come up with things like Gate of Heaven when Jesus say’s “I am the Gate”. In the end it seems heretical which is why I quoted those verses.

 

[sambos671]

Conception of Jesus in Mary’s womb happened after Mary said yes. And the HS overshadowed her.

You agree that Jesus is the bridegroom and the Church is the bride of Christ…correct?

The Church is made up of people. People we’re talking about aren’t invisable. They are corporeal beings. Therefore, All people in the Church are the bride of Christ, and Jesus is the bridegroom…correct?

Following your argument to its conclusion

no one in the Church could get married to anybody without breaking God’s commandment about adultry.

Obviously one can be the bride of Christ AND still get married

Another point that needs to be made is, Jesus is Mary’s only child. Yet she is mother to all those who follow her son.[Rev 12]

You make a good argument. However, My assertion is that Mary is no more the Spouce of the Holy Spirit than anyone else who beleives in Jesus. Jesus also said. “he would does the will of my father is my mother, my brother, my sisters”

 

[w_stewart]

You make a good argument. However, My assertion is that Mary is no more the Spouce of the Holy Spirit than anyone else who beleives in Jesus. Jesus also said. “he would does the will of my father is my mother, my brother, my sisters”

And therefore, Mary ceases to be Christ’s Mother?

 

[sambos671]

And therefore, Mary ceases to be Christ’s Mother?

How does that follow? Mary obviously did the will of the Father. How is she more the spouce of the Holy Spirit than anyone else who does the will of the Father?

 

[steve_b]

However, My assertion is that Mary is no more the Spouce of the Holy Spirit than anyone else who beleives in Jesus.

My impression is that you reject the term “spouse of the HS” being given to Mary.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4338077&postcount=50

Now you include the term for all who believe in Jesus?

Just a further comment staying with your assertion.

Mary did more than just believe in Jesus. ,The Father chose her alone to be the physical mother of His Son. And after the HS overshadowed her and nine months of pregnancy later, she gave physical birth to Jesus the God/man who was not only HER only son but the only child to come from her womb… Jesus took on Mary’s own flesh. She is the only human directly involved in the incarnation of the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity. The same flesh that was nailed to the cross. No adoption here, she IS the biological mother of Jesus.
Sambo:

Jesus also said. “he would does the will of my father is my mother, my brother, my sisters”

I hope without further explanation, that you see the differences between the 1st example and the second.

 

[sambos671]

My impression is that you reject the term “spouse of the HS” being given to Mary.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4338077&postcount=50

Now you include the term for all who believe in Jesus?

Just a further comment staying with your assertion.

Mary did more than just believe in Jesus. ,The Father chose her alone to be the physical mother of His Son. And after the HS overshadowed her and nine months of pregnancy later, she gave physical birth to Jesus the God/man who was not only HER only son but the only child to come from her womb… Jesus took on Mary’s own flesh. She is the only human directly involved in the incarnation of the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity. The same flesh that was nailed to the cross. No adoption here, she IS the biological mother of Jesus.

I hope without further explanation, that you see the differences between the 1st example and the second.

Remember what you stated that the church by virtue of being the bride of Christ then Mary is the Bride of the Holy Spirit because Jesus is Homoosious with the Holy Spirit. My remark is based on this assumption that the Church is the Bride of Christ Mary is not specially the “spouce” of the Holy Spirit differentiating from the Bride of christ which is what another poster was infering. I don’t see the difference. Mary has a special role as mother of Christ (I’m not saying Christokos in the sense of Nestorius) but to state that she must therefore be the spouce of the HS in a different way than the church is the bride of Christ? I don’t think so. Then another poster was speaking about “who was Jesus biological Father?” Which almost resonates of sexual realationship between the divine and the Mary which I find offensive and sounds very much like gnosticism which I quoted previously. Mary is part of the Body of Christ. Mary is the bride of Christ as are we. She is Theotokos when it comes to the nature of Jesus. But to make Mary the Gate of Heaven, (Jesus is the Gate) The Spouce of the Holy Spirit, Co-redemtrix, etc… I think is over thinking it to the detriment of the believers. Remember what Mary said at Jesus first miracle. “Do as he tells you” Not “do as I tell you.” Mary obeyed the father and deserves a special place in the life of the Church and in our hearts but to the extent of some here? I have problems with dressing up Marian statues with a crown of flowers and cloth robes. I’m sorry I think that goes beyond the Christian faith and boarders on what the Greeks and the Romans did for their deities and how they celebrated their gods. By the honor Mary gives in her praise at the announcement of Gabriel (My heart does maginify the Lord) makes me think she might be offended by some of this speculation.

 

[steve_b]

Remember what you stated that the church by virtue of being the bride of Christ then Mary is the Bride of the Holy Spirit because Jesus is Homoosious with the Holy Spirit.

I don’t recall saying it like this.
sambo:

My remark is based on this assumption that the Church is the Bride of Christ Mary is not specially the “spouce” of the Holy Spirit differentiating from the Bride of christ which is what another poster was infering.

I think I was pretty clear on what I said

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4344240&postcount=67

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4339270&postcount=61
sambo:

to state that she must therefore be the spouce of the HS in a different way than the church is the bride of Christ? I don’t think so.

Why?

I gave you my explanation, and gave you reasons. Please explain your reasons
sambo:

Then another poster was speaking about “who was Jesus biological Father?” Which almost resonates of sexual realationship between the divine and the Mary which I find offensive and sounds very much like gnosticism which I quoted previously.

I responded to that poster with

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea3.asp
sambo:

Mary is part of the Body of Christ.

True. And She Literally gave Jesus His incarnated body
sambo:

Mary is the bride of Christ as are we. She is Theotokos when it comes to the nature of Jesus. But to make Mary the Gate of Heaven, (Jesus is the Gate)

You can’t argue with the point that heaven came to us through Mary. therefore, she also is a gate, by God’s own design.
sambo:

The Spouce of the Holy Spirit, Co-redemtrix, etc… I think is over thinking it to the detriment of the believers.

Co-redemtrix, co-mediatrix etc are not officially taught by the Church. Although as I’ve said before I personally have no problem with them.

Bride of Christ, Mother of God, are terms you agree with.

You’re confsing me on what position you’re taking with regards to spouse of the HS. 1st you disagree, then you agree, then you disagree. Which is it?
sambo:

Remember what Mary said at Jesus first miracle. “Do as he tells you” Not “do as I tell you.”

Agreed.

Now to be transparent, are you doing everything Jesus says to do?
sambo:

Mary obeyed the father and deserves a special place in the life of the Church and in our hearts but to the extent of some here? I have problems with dressing up Marian statues with a crown of flowers and cloth robes. I’m sorry I think that goes beyond the Christian faith and boarders on what the Greeks and the Romans did for their deities and how they celebrated their gods.

Do you

1. 
   *]put wreaths on your door at Christmas
   *]decorate Christmas trees, and sing caroles around the tree
   *]decorate a manger scene
   *]put flowers at a loved one’s grave site
   *]put head stones with pictures etc of the deceased at the grave sites and make room for flowers
   *]etc etc etc
   sambo:
   

   By the honor Mary gives in her praise at the announcement of Gabriel (My heart does maginify the Lord) makes me think she might be offended by some of this speculation.

   Lk 1:
   46And Mary said, My **soul **doth magnify the Lord,
   
   Personally, I don’t think anybody can honor Mary more than God almighty has honored Mary. I mean this in the proper sense.

 

[sambos671]

You’re confsing me on what position you’re taking with regards to spouse of the HS. 1st you disagree, then you agree, then you disagree. Which is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo

Remember what Mary said at Jesus first miracle. “Do as he tells you” Not “do as I tell you.”

Agreed.

Now to be transparent, are you doing everything Jesus says to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo

Mary obeyed the father and deserves a special place in the life of the Church and in our hearts but to the extent of some here? I have problems with dressing up Marian statues with a crown of flowers and cloth robes. I’m sorry I think that goes beyond the Christian faith and boarders on what the Greeks and the Romans did for their deities and how they celebrated their gods.

Do you
put wreaths on your door at Christmas
decorate Christmas trees, and sing caroles around the tree
decorate a manger scene
put flowers at a loved one’s grave site
put head stones with pictures etc of the deceased at the grave sites and make room for flowers
etc etc etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo

By the honor Mary gives in her praise at the announcement of Gabriel (My heart does maginify the Lord) makes me think she might be offended by some of this speculation.

Lk 1:
46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Personally, I don’t think anybody can honor Mary more than God almighty has honored Mary. I mean this in the proper sense.

1. I do not agree that Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit in any differentiated way than any believer is the Bride of Christ.
   2.No I haven’t done everything God has asked me to do which is why I rely on his grace and once confronted with my disobedience I ask his forgiveness and try better next time.
2. I do have a Christmas tree but it isn’t a doctrinal issue for me. I don’t call it the gate of heaven or ask it to pray for me or believe it has some special significance to draw me closer to God.
3. I agree with your last remark about no one can honor her more than the Lord. Which he has. But I still have a problem with co-redemtrix (that you don’t). And yes Jesus obtained his body from his mother and she may be the gate though which Jesus became incarnated but Jesus says that he is the gate (by which men are saved and gain eternal life). He also says “I am the way the truth and the life no man may enter the kingdom of heaven but by me” (this is paraphrased from my poor memory but you get the idea.)

 

[steve_b]

1. I do not agree that Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit in any differentiated way than any believer is the Bride of Christ.

You haven’t responded to any point that was given. You’re only disagreeing without giving your reasons.
sambo:

2.No I haven’t done everything God has asked me to do which is why I rely on his grace and once confronted with my disobedience I ask his forgiveness and try better next time.

What about joining His Church?
sambo:

1. I do have a Christmas tree but it isn’t a doctrinal issue for me. I don’t call it the gate of heaven or ask it to pray for me or believe it has some special significance to draw me closer to God.

You’re switching context.

you previously said (emphasis mine)

:

I have problems with dressing up Marian statues with a crown of flowers and cloth robes. I’m sorry I think that goes beyond the Christian faith and boarders on what the Greeks and the Romans did for their deities and how they celebrated their gods

to which I responded

:

Do you

1. • put wreaths on your door at Christmas
   • decorate Christmas trees, and sing caroles around the tree
   • decorate a manger scene
   • put flowers at a loved one’s grave site
   • put head stones with pictures etc of the deceased at the grave sites and make room for flowers
   • etc etc etc

1. 
   Putting a crown on the statue of Mary
   • Isn’t doctrinal
   • the statue isn’t the gate
   • we don’t pray to statues
     Moving from an object to the person, Mary, already has a crown of Glory by God, she already was a gate for her son Jesus Christ to the world, by God’s design, and we ask her for her prayers just like we would anyone we ask to pray for us. It’s just that her prayers are more powerful than ANYONE’S prayers that would be here on earth.
   Statues are a rememberance of the person. Just like mangers, wreaths, grave stones etc etc.
   sambo:
   

   1. I agree with your last remark about no one can honor her more than the Lord.

   Always good to get agreement
   sambo:
   

   And yes Jesus obtained his body from his mother and she may be the gate though which Jesus became incarnated

   Good, another agreement
   sambo:
   

   but Jesus says that he is the gate (by which men are saved and gain eternal life).

   True. And Jesus didn’t come to the world directly. He came to us through Mary, by the Father’s own design.
   sambo:
   

   He also says “I am the way the truth and the life no man may enter the kingdom of heaven but by me”

   True.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The quotes from Ireaneaus relates in this way that in order to explain Jesus in their theology they had to relate Mary to an Aeon or an aspect of the Divine palorama. I think sometimes Catholicism does this. In order to explain Jesus they over think Mary and come up with things like Gate of Heaven when Jesus say’s “I am the Gate”. In the end it seems heretical which is why I quoted those verses.

Ummm…no.

 

[sambos671]

You haven’t responded to any point that was given. You’re only disagreeing without giving your reasons.

OK here it is. I see nothing in scripture to compel me otherwise.

According to the Catachism the Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition work hand in hand teaching the faithful the truths of God (my paraphrase). Through out history Mary has held a significant role in the view of the Church but at least as early as Nestorius Doubt is raised about what kind of role Mary takes. Nestorius was branded a heretic on the bases of misunderstanding the dual nature of Christ and how the incarnation worked. However, in the end he did support the term Theotokos over Christokos to the extent that the church understands the nature of Jesus rather than the elevation of the woman Mary. He did not want Mary to be considered divine or to be said to have created God. He saw a danger in this. Though there have been differing views of Mary for 2000 years and her role in the church it becomes evident that doctrinally it wasn’t defined until the 1800 as to the immaculate conspetion. One of the reasons the Orthodox do not hold to it as the Roman church does. The details of Mary’s nature and operation within the Chruch may have differed greatly in the Church since its earliest days to 1800 years later. One of the comon replys of the Catholic to the Protestant is that how come you have the truth 1500 years latter? What happened to the church during that time? Well, I can say the same thing about Mary. Why does the church have the truth about Mary 1800 years later? And through the revelation of St. Theresa. It seems to me new doctrine. The Catachism also states there will be no new revelation. Mary as the Catholic church now holds with the fringe (or mainstream I don’t know) holding the view of Co-redemtrix. How long before this too becomes defined and doctrine? There has never been a unified view of Marian doctrine in the Church until relative recent years. And even now, there is dispute. The Church does not teach co-redemtrix yet there are prayers which call her that. I see people flock to oil slicks because it looks like Mary and they say “I feel her presense.” or pay $5,000. for a Pop Tart that looks like the Madona (admittedly I put that one as over the top but you get my point.) Our Lady of Guadalupe has never been verified by the RCC yet you can’t get around California or Mexico with out see the picture. I know old ladies (my grandmother included) who spend more time with Mary to the exclusion of Jesus. “Pray to Mary about this or that” Never the Lord. I see Mary with the heart in pictures at these people houses and only the crusifix represents Jesus. I see statues carried in Spain of Mary but not as much Jesus. My country of heretige (I’m american but my family came from there) Nicaragua they have a celebration Purisima for the Virgin its just as big and important as Christmas. I begin to think that though the church doesn’t teach these things it doesn’t matter to the laity and Mary is worshiped though it’s not in the CCC.

 

[sambos671]

Ummm…no.

Ummm…yes.

 

[rad]

To Call the Holy Theotokos the Spouse of the Holy Spirit…is blasphemes…
Never Heard That in Orthodoxy…Ever…

 

[sambos671]

To Call the Holy Theotokos the Spouse of the Holy Spirit…is blasphemes…
Never Heard That in Orthodoxy…Ever…

Thank you. And it confirms what I thought.

 

[JMJ_coder]

To Call the Holy Theotokos the Spouse of the Holy Spirit…is blasphemes…
Never Heard That in Orthodoxy…Ever…

Check out the Church Fathers, such as Saint Ephrem, Patriach Euthymius of Constantinople, Neophytus the Recluse, and others.

 

[steve_b]

I see nothing in scripture to compel me otherwise.

What does scripture say is the pilar and foundation of truth? Please answer this.
sambo:

According to the Catachism the Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition work hand in hand teaching the faithful the truths of God

IOW, Tradition is both Oral and Written. BOTH are authoritative.

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
[2 Thes 2:15]
sambo:

Through out history Mary has held a significant role in the view of the Church but at least as early as Nestorius Doubt is raised about what kind of role Mary takes. Nestorius was branded a heretic on the bases of misunderstanding the dual nature of Christ and how the incarnation worked. However, in the end he did support the term Theotokos over Christokos to the extent that the church understands the nature of Jesus rather than the elevation of the woman Mary. He did not want Mary to be considered divine or to be said to have created God. He saw a danger in this.

Now you’re defending Nestorius?
sambo:

Though there have been differing views of Mary for 2000 years and her role in the church it becomes evident that doctrinally it wasn’t defined until the 1800 as to the immaculate conspetion. One of the reasons the Orthodox do not hold to it as the Roman church does. The details of Mary’s nature and operation within the Chruch may have differed greatly in the Church since its earliest days to 1800 years later. One of the comon replys of the Catholic to the Protestant is that how come you have the truth 1500 years latter?

Let me ask you.

Did the truth about the law of gravity not exist before Newton in the 17th century defined it?
sambo:

What happened to the church during that time? Well, I can say the same thing about Mary. Why does the church have the truth about Mary 1800 years later?

The Church believed it all along, it was just not formally defined.
sambo:

Mary as the Catholic church now holds with the fringe (or mainstream I don’t know) holding the view of Co-redemtrix. How long before this too becomes defined and doctrine? There has never been a unified view of Marian doctrine in the Church until relative recent years. And even now, there is dispute. The Church does not teach co-redemtrix yet there are prayers which call her that. I see people flock to oil slicks because it looks like Mary and they say “I feel her presense.” or pay $5,000. for a Pop Tart that looks like the Madona (admittedly I put that one as over the top but you get my point.)

Let’s stick with what the Church actually teaches .
sambo:

Our Lady of Guadalupe has never been verified by the RCC

Oh yes it HAS.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020731_juan-diego_en.html

http://www.sancta.org/
sambo:

yet you can’t get around California or Mexico with out see the picture.

She’s the patron Saint of the Americas
sambo:

I know old ladies (my grandmother included) who spend more time with Mary to the exclusion of Jesus. “Pray to Mary about this or that” Never the Lord. I see Mary with the heart in pictures at these people houses and only the crusifix represents Jesus. I see statues carried in Spain of Mary but not as much Jesus. My country of heretige (I’m american but my family came from there) Nicaragua they have a celebration Purisima for the Virgin its just as big and important as Christmas. I begin to think that though the church doesn’t teach these things it doesn’t matter to the laity and Mary is worshiped though it’s not in the CCC.

I suspected you had Cartholicism in your background. Even though I’m stunned at how little you know about Catholicism. The Blessed Mother has ALWAYS taken people to her Son. Does that mean abuse can’t happen? No. I would suggest you are picking and choosing what you THINK you know, or want to see and you absolutize THAT.