All I Want Is Evidence

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Tgette,

The book I referred to earlier is “Documents of the Christian Church” Selected and Edited by Henry Bettenson, Second Edition. 1965. I’m not sure if this are any later editions as I haven’t been able to locate any. But it has a lot of historical information, some of it a little schetchy (sp), but still very informative.
 
I am glad you are willing to study the history of the Church. I cannot help but be snide when a person profers Fox’s book as authoritative history. 🤷
And tell me, where exactly did he get such detailed information and how was it preserved?
 
I always thought he got most of his info on early church history from Eusibius.
Do you mean ST. Jerome? Sound like a pretty good source to me. Of course that would only cover the early church, 1st century or so wouldn’t it?
 
Do you mean ST. Jerome? Sound like a pretty good source to me. Of course that would only cover the early church, 1st century or so wouldn’t it?
We’re talking about John Fox book Fox’s book of Martyrs right? He was anglican right?
 
And tell me, where exactly did he get such detailed information and how was it preserved?
Since it is your textbook, I am sure you know. 😉

Detailed and preserved historical facts can be presented in such a manner as to be tainted by the attitude of the writer.
 
The book I referred to earlier is “Documents of the Christian Church” Selected and Edited by Henry Bettenson, Second Edition. 1965. I’m not sure if this are any later editions as I haven’t been able to locate any.
There is a newer edition, publ. 1999. I have it. It’s published by the Oxford press.

It is a pretty even book, though possibly *slightly *biased in favor of the Reformation. It contains both Catholic and other Christian documents, plus “references to Christianity in classical authors.” It’s a good place to look up what was *really *said. But of course, it’s far from comprehensive. It would have to be a whole library to contain the full text of all the documents it quotes, and it doesn’t quote them all.

I wish I could show you the TOC! Well, you can see the first page (of 12) here.

God bless us all,

Ruthie
 
There is a newer edition, publ. 1999. I have it. It’s published by the Oxford press.

It is a pretty even book, though possibly *slightly *biased in favor of the Reformation. It contains both Catholic and other Christian documents, plus “references to Christianity in classical authors.” It’s a good place to look up what was *really *said. But of course, it’s far from comprehensive. It would have to be a whole library to contain the full text of all the documents it quotes, and it doesn’t quote them all.

I wish I could show you the TOC! Well, you can see the first page (of 12) here.

God bless us all,

Ruthie
Thanks Ruthie, I’ve been wondering where I could find a more updated version. This is great.👍
 
Since it is your textbook, I am sure you know. 😉

Detailed and preserved historical facts can be presented in such a manner as to be tainted by the attitude of the writer.
Ho Hum. Once again I am forced to research where others will not. From the looks of what I have been able to find, it would seem Mr. Fox (Foxe) was a very honorable and honest man and that his endevours to uncover and document the truth concerning the martyrdoms of many believers were painstaking and were also, in some case gathered from eyewitness accounts.

see gospelweb.net/FoxeMartyrs/FS_FoxeMartyrs.htm
 
**+Come, Holy Spirit+
**

We see great evidence (historical) of division anytime a theology and/or belief is challenged. We see evidence of this in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox schism. We see this in the Protestant Reformation. (Well at the time it was political but turned theological). We see this in all the Protestant churches splitting amongst each other. Regardless, we see great uproars in certain times of history of great changes occurring in the Christian community.

So onto my question(s): (Sorry if there are too many questions on this thread)

If, indeed, as non-Catholics tell us, the Catholic Church did adopt false doctrines down the line, then where is the evidence for this? Can anyone give me any specific dates?

Why are there not churches splitting when these “false doctrines” were being introduced? Do you not think people would try to refute what they once believed as they were now being told they had to adopt a new belief?

Was the Catholic Church that good at creating new doctrines that the churches that existed everywhere through out the world other than Rome were somehow able to adopt these changes? It is not like they had the internet or cell phones to just call up the local Bishops and tell them “We are deciding to say that Mary is a perpetual virgin now.” I mean, if Rome did make changes and then you traveled to a church in a different country, you would expect them to believe something different, right?
*
The point I am trying to get at is that if the Church was making changes there would be people/churches at those times who would disagree and there would have been many churches/beliefs WAY before the Protestant Reformation. There would be an historical event of people arguing over new doctrines being introduced to the Christian faith.*
One specific example that comes to mind is the the doctrine of the Trinity.

Prior to 325 CE, the prevailing understanding of God in Christianity was subordination. Then in 325 Constantine, a non-Catholic convened his Council at Nicea and revised the orthodox view to a trinitarian view. Constantine resorted to threats to compel those in attendance to agree. Constantine also followed through on his threats and exiled those that did not agree. He destroyed all the works of Arius that he could get ahold of and then threatened death to anyone possessing/reading the works of Arius. As Constantine was no stranger to murder, his threats were to be taken seriously.
 
One specific example that comes to mind is the the doctrine of the Trinity.

Prior to 325 CE, the prevailing understanding of God in Christianity was subordination. Then in 325 Constantine, a non-Catholic convened his Council at Nicea and revised the orthodox view to a trinitarian view. Constantine resorted to threats to compel those in attendance to agree. Constantine also followed through on his threats and exiled those that did not agree. He destroyed all the works of Arius that he could get ahold of and then threatened death to anyone possessing/reading the works of Arius. As Constantine was no stranger to murder, his threats were to be taken seriously.
Although I am inclined to take a stance that Constantine did have an inordinate influence over the Roman church of his time, this assertion has escaped me in my studies for it has revealed that Constantine as well as Constantinus were of the Arian belief, could you please provide some supporting documentation on this, something from that era would greatly improve your stance on this.
 
Ho Hum. Once again I am forced to research where others will not. From the looks of what I have been able to find, it would seem Mr. Fox (Foxe) was a very honorable and honest man and that his endevours to uncover and document the truth concerning the martyrdoms of many believers were painstaking and were also, in some case gathered from eyewitness accounts.
I have no doubt. 😃

Care to speculate about why it is required reading in many anti-Catholic Bible Schools?
 
One specific example that comes to mind is the the doctrine of the Trinity.

Prior to 325 CE, the prevailing understanding of God in Christianity was subordination. Then in 325 Constantine, a non-Catholic convened his Council at Nicea and revised the orthodox view to a trinitarian view. Constantine resorted to threats to compel those in attendance to agree. Constantine also followed through on his threats and exiled those that did not agree. He destroyed all the works of Arius that he could get ahold of and then threatened death to anyone possessing/reading the works of Arius. As Constantine was no stranger to murder, his threats were to be taken seriously.
I am sorry, Snow, but you have been given misinformation. Constantine had nothing to do with the forumulation of doctrine in the Church. It is true that he wanted a council, and compelled the bishops to attend. The reason for this is because most of the Empire had fallen into Arianism, and it was tearing the Empire apart economically and politically. Constantine was an Arian, so I can assure you he was not responsible for destroying the books. On the contrary, he urged the council toward the Arian view, as it was a majority. Prior to this council, Christians had been facing extermination for three centuries, so I doubt that a threat of giving their lives for the faith was of any concern for them. the Church was built on the blood of the martyrs. The trinitarian doctrine prevailed because that is what was believed and taught by the Apostles.
 
One specific example that comes to mind is the the doctrine of the Trinity.

Prior to 325 CE, the prevailing understanding of God in Christianity was subordination. Then in 325 Constantine, a non-Catholic convened his Council at Nicea and revised the orthodox view to a trinitarian view. Constantine resorted to threats to compel those in attendance to agree. Constantine also followed through on his threats and exiled those that did not agree. He destroyed all the works of Arius that he could get ahold of and then threatened death to anyone possessing/reading the works of Arius. As Constantine was no stranger to murder, his threats were to be taken seriously.
The word Trinity stems from year 181 A.D. when Theophilus of Antioch gave a name to the mystery of the eternal Godhead believed from the beginning of the Church.
 
Although I am inclined to take a stance that Constantine did have an inordinate influence over the Roman church of his time, this assertion has escaped me in my studies for it has revealed that Constantine as well as Constantinus were of the Arian belief, could you please provide some supporting documentation on this, something from that era would greatly improve your stance on this.
Sure, though I am not certain what you want sources on. Here’s a bit:

"So under imperial protection and with imperial financial support the First Oecumenical Council met in 325 at Nicaea. Constantine himself presided over the assembly, (Eusebios, Vita Constantini, ed F. Winkelmann (Berlin, 1975) 2;61-3:24) which is unlikely to have the numbered as many as 318 bishops, the traditional figure (Athanaios claims 318, Eusebios over 250; Chadick, The Early Church, 130, suggests 220), and took part in its proceedings… Four aspects of the first council need to be stressed here. First, from the outset the emperor was intimately associated with it, and association deepened by the fact that subsequent universal councils were always held in the East at imperial initiative - Constantine I had established the model.” (Judith Herrin, The Formation of Christendom, pp. 99-100 (member if editorial board of Past and Present, and a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of London, graduated in history at Cambridge, PhD at Birmingham University and studied in Paris, Munich, Istanbul and most recently a Fellow at the Shelby Cullom Davis Center for Historical Studies, Princeton University.)

“The council’s major task was to agree on a creed, a concise and formal statement of belief. It met in an imperial palace under imperial auspice, and Constantine presided over it’s opening session.” Brian Moynahan, The Faith - A History of Christianity, p.121

“Finally, since we are now dealing with late testimonies, let us recall that Pope Stephen V (885-891), in his letter to Emperor Basil, gives the presidency to the Council of Constantine…” Hefele, Historire des Conciles… Vol 1, Part 1, pp 425, 426, 427

"Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church. Richard Kieckhefer (1989). “Papacy”. Dictionary of the Middle Ages.

“It must be supposed that Constantine himself, who was not very much at home in Greek, did not have a particularly clear idea of what homoousious was supposed to mean. But he reckoned that it would serve to obtain more or less general agreement (against Arius), and he was right: less for theological reasons than because hardly anyone had he nerve to contradict him.” Michael Grant, Constantine the Great: The Man and His Times, p. 173 (Fellow of Trinity College, Professor of Humanity at Edinburgh University).

That Constantine presides at Nicaea is entirely consistent with how the emperor had been operating. When the Donatist controversy had broken out over a decade earlier, it was to Constantine, not the Church proper that the Donatists made their appeal. Constantine reponded by appointing 5 judges - then with the pope appointing 14 Italian bishops, it was transformed into a Council of Synod. The die was being caste. “True, the emperor completely controlled the bishops himself. His dominance over them, embodied in the statement ‘my will must be considered binding’ (H.M. Jones, Constantine and the Conversion of Europe pp 142f; another version is in J. Holland Smith, Constantine the Great pp. 191f)) which some earlier Christians would never have accepted - was a prime example of that monarchical control of church described as Caesaropapism. Athanasius declared that the Fathers never sought imperial sanction (R. MacMullen, Constantine, p. 237 ), but in Constantine’s time they had to and they did. And it was he himself who chose every bishop when a vacancy arose.” Michael Grant, Constantine the Great: The Man and His Times, p. 159

Note: Though there is no evidence of it, some believe that Constantine conferred with Pope Silvester on convening the Council.
 
I am sorry, Snow, but you have been given misinformation. Constantine had nothing to do with the forumulation of doctrine in the Church. It is true that he wanted a council, and compelled the bishops to attend. The reason for this is because most of the Empire had fallen into Arianism, and it was tearing the Empire apart economically and politically. Constantine was an Arian, so I can assure you he was not responsible for destroying the books. On the contrary, he urged the council toward the Arian view, as it was a majority. Prior to this council, Christians had been facing extermination for three centuries, so I doubt that a threat of giving their lives for the faith was of any concern for them. the Church was built on the blood of the martyrs. The trinitarian doctrine prevailed because that is what was believed and taught by the Apostles.
You can see my post above for a start, but I do, in fact know what I am talking about and am prepared to quote, at length about anything I claim.

While I have reviewed numerous modern scholarly sources, below are a list of the primary and early sources I have checked and read:

Eusebius, Vita Constantini, Book III, ch. 6-13
Socrates, Historia Ecclesia, Book I ch.8
Theoderet, Historia Ecclesia, Book I, ch.6-13
Sozomen, Historia Ecclesia, Book 1, ch.21
Athanasius, De decretis synodis
Athanasius, Ep. ad episcopos Africae, 5.ff
 
You can see my post above for a start, but I do, in fact know what I am talking about and am prepared to quote, at length about anything I claim.
So, what you are saying is that God abandoned the Church, and it was hijacked by a Pagan?

The Holy Way of Life passed on to the bishops through the blood of 350 years of martyrdom suddenly became nothing worth giving one’s life for under Constantine? He was more “scary” than Nero, and Diacletian?

No, Christians, empowered by the HS, have always been given their lives for their faith. What you are sayiing is that none of those at the council were Christians.
 
The evidence is in the doubt of the church herself. The fact that other people will always splinter and make new denominations.
But Jesus hated denominations and he warned of its dangers. As a catholic i am sick of people claiming to be the true church, mormons and witnesses especially. But the only truth is that the catholic church is the biggest and oldest christian church, they were there with Jesus when we were not. Mormons and witnesses have many denominations mormons have 95 in itself. The catholic church have no divisions but orders that are connected to the same church. I have had so many door knockers come and tell me they are the right ones. But I know who are the right ones, because i am not the one going around tring to convince others that I am right, I know i am
Like jesus said the MEEK shall inherit the earth.
 
Sure, though I am not certain what you want sources on. Here’s a bit:

"So under imperial protection and with imperial financial support the First Oecumenical Council met in 325 at Nicaea. Constantine himself presided over the assembly, (Eusebios, Vita Constantini, ed F. Winkelmann (Berlin, 1975) 2;61-3:24) which is unlikely to have the numbered as many as 318 bishops, the traditional figure (Athanaios claims 318, Eusebios over 250; Chadick, The Early Church, 130, suggests 220), and took part in its proceedings… Four aspects of the first council need to be stressed here. First, from the outset the emperor was intimately associated with it, and association deepened by the fact that subsequent universal councils were always held in the East at imperial initiative - Constantine I had established the model.” (Judith Herrin, The Formation of Christendom, pp. 99-100 (member if editorial board of Past and Present, and a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of London, graduated in history at Cambridge, PhD at Birmingham University and studied in Paris, Munich, Istanbul and most recently a Fellow at the Shelby Cullom Davis Center for Historical Studies, Princeton University.)

“The council’s major task was to agree on a creed, a concise and formal statement of belief. It met in an imperial palace under imperial auspice, and Constantine presided over it’s opening session.” Brian Moynahan, The Faith - A History of Christianity, p.121

“Finally, since we are now dealing with late testimonies, let us recall that Pope Stephen V (885-891), in his letter to Emperor Basil, gives the presidency to the Council of Constantine…” Hefele, Historire des Conciles… Vol 1, Part 1, pp 425, 426, 427

"Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church. Richard Kieckhefer (1989). “Papacy”. Dictionary of the Middle Ages.

“It must be supposed that Constantine himself, who was not very much at home in Greek, did not have a particularly clear idea of what homoousious was supposed to mean. But he reckoned that it would serve to obtain more or less general agreement (against Arius), and he was right: less for theological reasons than because hardly anyone had he nerve to contradict him.” Michael Grant, Constantine the Great: The Man and His Times, p. 173 (Fellow of Trinity College, Professor of Humanity at Edinburgh University).

That Constantine presides at Nicaea is entirely consistent with how the emperor had been operating. When the Donatist controversy had broken out over a decade earlier, it was to Constantine, not the Church proper that the Donatists made their appeal. Constantine reponded by appointing 5 judges - then with the pope appointing 14 Italian bishops, it was transformed into a Council of Synod. The die was being caste. “True, the emperor completely controlled the bishops himself. His dominance over them, embodied in the statement ‘my will must be considered binding’ (H.M. Jones, Constantine and the Conversion of Europe pp 142f; another version is in J. Holland Smith, Constantine the Great pp. 191f)) which some earlier Christians would never have accepted - was a prime example of that monarchical control of church described as Caesaropapism. Athanasius declared that the Fathers never sought imperial sanction (R. MacMullen, Constantine, p. 237 ), but in Constantine’s time they had to and they did. And it was he himself who chose every bishop when a vacancy arose.” Michael Grant, Constantine the Great: The Man and His Times, p. 159

Note: Though there is no evidence of it, some believe that Constantine conferred with Pope Silvester on convening the Council.
Nicely presented, thank you for the info and the references.
Now, shall we get back on topic?😛
 
I have no doubt. 😃

Care to speculate about why it is required reading in many anti-Catholic Bible Schools?
An honest anwser? “My” speculation?
For some it would truly be an “anti-catholic” sentiment, just out of spitefulness. For others, could it be that the RCC has tried, up until recently, to distort or suppress the truth for so long? Presonally, I really don’t know, but, if the truth is the truth why try to disallow it, or suppress it? For some the truth is a dangerous thing, for others it leads to freedom. This is the reason we are emplored my the Apostles to “study the scriptures, rightly dividing” the truth from error according to what they have taught, remembering that they would have NEITHER taught verbally in contradition to what they had written, nor vis-a-versa.
 
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