All I Want Is Evidence

[guanophore]

There are also instances in the scriptures wherein the leadership has gone astray and it was given to the followers to point those errors out to the leadership, in some cases they were heeded, in others they were not. It both, consequences were meted out in accordance to the action of the leadership.

God has ways of keeping HIs people in order!

Fortunately today, we no longer have a leadership that requires one’s head for speaking out against error. But who knows, maybe it will be reinstituted some where down the line.

Yes, I am sure that is true for your sect. However, this if a major difference from the Apostolic Teaching, which is that Jesus, our Head, promised to be with us until the end of the age. He promised HIs spirit to guide us into “all Truth”. The leadership in the Catholic church, unlike your own, does depend on the Head for speaking out against error.

I am sure that many more sects will continue to be “reinstituted somewhere down the line”. The evil one loves the divide and conquer method.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

God has ways of keeping HIs people in order!

Yes, I am sure that is true for your sect. However, this if a major difference from the Apostolic Teaching, which is that Jesus, our Head, promised to be with us until the end of the age. He promised HIs spirit to guide us into “all Truth”. The leadership in the Catholic church, unlike your own, does depend on the Head for speaking out against error.

I am sure that many more sects will continue to be “reinstituted somewhere down the line”. The evil one loves the divide and conquer method.

Seeing as my comment went over your head I’ll be nice.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Well, you’re partially correct. It’s a church. It’s also a denomination. It used to be considered a cult.

If you would like to school yourself, feel free:

christianity.about.com/od/romancatholicdenomination/Roman_Catholic_Denomination.htm

If you have a site that is moronic (about.com’s are worse than wikipedia) and is actually scholarly and not anti-Catholic, feel free to post. And the only ones who ever considered Catholics as members of a cult in the pejorative sense were those who were malicious or deeply deceived and/or disturbed.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Ok, let’s get this fixed once and for all. I am tired of hear that the “protestant” movement “STARTED” with Martin Luther. IT DID NOT. Throughtout the history of the church, long before Luther there were reformation movements, most of which were suppressed and attacked by the powers of the “church” that did not wish to hear that there were errors within their precious theology. However, these errors were proven by many before Luther. What happened with Luther and all those after him was that the pot finally boiled over and those how were aware of the errors just got sick and tired of following a church leadership that was in error. Face it, the “church” was not perfect then and it is not perfect now.

Martin Luther started the heresy known as Protestantism - though it has been expanded upon by other heretics (i.e., Calvin, Zwingli, etc.). Yes, there were other heresies and schism before Luther, but none that were of the Protestant heresy.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Deceived by Satan???

Oh - the horror. Mercy me whatever will we do? That crazy old beelzebub.

What can you do? The only thing you can do, embrace the fullness of the Catholic faith and enter in to the mystery of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Seeing as my comment went over your head I’ll be nice.

I would not assume that your innuendo “went over my head” just because I chose not to respond to it.

Furthermore, it would behoove you to “be nice” because if you post what you really believe about Catholics, it will probably be a violation of the forum rules.

 

[kevangreen]

Ok, let’s get this fixed once and for all. I am tired of hear that the “protestant” movement “STARTED” with Martin Luther. IT DID NOT. Throughtout the history of the church, long before Luther there were reformation movements, most of which were suppressed and attacked by the powers of the “church” that did not wish to hear that there were errors within their precious theology. However, these errors were proven by many before Luther. What happened with Luther and all those after him was that the pot finally boiled over and those how were aware of the errors just got sick and tired of following a church leadership that was in error. Face it, the “church” was not perfect then and it is not perfect now.

catholic dont believe we are the perfect church cause
we believe you can be baptized in any church to go to heaven
even people who have not been baptized.
but mormon they believe you HAVE to be baptized mormon
to go i.e those heretical baptisms for the dead
( sounds like a cult)

 

[Snow]

Speaking as a Roman Catholic, you are not correct. The Catholic church is the body of Jesus Christ, read Pauls epistle Ephesians 4-6. The Body of Jesus Christ (Catholic church) has not denominated from any man made religion. And yes the Catholic church is a cult, she has always believed in Jesus and followed the Traditional Worship given to us by Jesus and the apostles in the Mass.

Oh brother.

You BELIEVE on faith that the RCC is the body of Christ - that doesn’t make it so, it’s just your opinion, but regardless, it is still a church and it still a denomination.

Please dont confuse the body of Jesus Christ cult, with occult. Occult has to do with secret belief’s, the Catholic church has been commisioned to proclaim the gospel not keep it secret.

You’ve obviously missed the point - which wasn’t about Catholic doctrine, rather to show you that Catholicism is considered a denomination. If you need more help, here’s a dictionary:

thefreedictionary.com/denomination

… if you think I am misinformed about Catholicism, perhaps you can show me where I have posted a factual error about it… but I doubt it.

 

[kevangreen]

Oh brother.

You BELIEVE on faith that the RCC is the body of Christ - that doesn’t make it so, it’s just your opinion, but regardless, it is still a church and it still a denomination.

Yeah - okay. I won’t confuse cult with occult. They are different words so that shouldn’t be too much trouble.

You’ve obviously missed the point - which wasn’t about Catholic doctrine, rather to show you that Catholicism is considered a denomination. If you need more help, here’s a dictionary:

thefreedictionary.com/denomination

… if you think I am misinformed about Catholicism, perhaps you can show me where I have posted a factual error about it… but I doubt it.

A denomination of what, from where?

 

[Snow]

Well, you will have to substantiate such a preposterous claim. Show us the evidence, as the OP states.

It’s hardly a preposterous claim. It’s a belief that has been taught one way or another but the majority of non-RCC denominations. The reason that there are 38,000 other Christian denominations in the world is because they don’t buy into the RCC claims.

I think this is a fabrication that anti-Catholics use to justify disobedience to the teaching authority appointed by Christ.

1. I am not anti-Catholic
2. I do not try to justify disobedience of authority.

… so you are mistaken on both counts in my case.

The other problem people have who embrace this view is justifying the NT. If the Church had abandoned God in 325,and had no more authority, then there is no way that it could legitimately produce a canon 50 years later.

Why exactly?

Do you think God is not capable of causing or inspiring men, even apostates, to do his will?

I think that he is and he did.

If the bishops failed to hold to the Apostolic teaching out of fear of reprisal from the emperor, then they were not sufficiently committed to their beliefs to risk punishment or martyrdom. There were such atrocities against Christians in the first 300 years of the Church it is likely that, had Constantine not de-crimminialized Christianity that Christians would have continued to be persecuted and killed. Your formulation is suggesting that the bishops, after 300 years of giving their lives for the faith, suddenly were overcome with cowardice, and abandoned the faith of the Apostles out of fear for their own welfare.

Not being a coward does nothing to prove that you have authority from God. It just means you are committed to your convictions, not that your convictions were correct.

But for that matter, Constantine did have to resorts to threats of exile and death to get his way at Nicea. It worked.

Constantine was highly motivated to repair the schism caused in Christendom by the Arian heresy

It was only a heresy after the fact. Prior to Nicea, subordinationism was the orthodox position.

He compelled the bishops to attend because this heresy was interfering with the political an economic functioning of the empire.

Yep - excellent point and when the boss spoke, the bishops jumped.

The Trinitarian Christians were excommunicating the Arians and vice versa. Constantine favored Arianism, s you will have to explain how, when the bishops were under threat of death and exile, they came up with a solution opposite of what he preferred.

Constantine didn’t care what the outcome was and had little appreciation for the doctrinal significance of it all. That Constantine did not understand the significance of the Arian controversy is suggested by his characterization of it as a “trifling” issue. In a letter Constantine repeatedly criticized Arius and Bishop Alexander for disputing about matters of no real significance. There are many references to this; for example: John Holland Smith, Constantine the Great, p 191.

You will also have to explain how all those bishops became filled with cowardice, and were no longer wiling to uphold the faith which had been entrusted to their care, and for which their predecessors had given their lives. Do you think there was a pestilence of backbone dissolving influenza that mysteriously infected them?

There’s no need to explain anything. He threatened them, they complied. On the handful that did not comply, he followed through with his threats. There’s no need to get inside their heads about it.

No

Do you own a dictionary? Look it up:

thefreedictionary.com/denomination

Yes.

It doesn’t bother me. I would be bothered if they didn’t think it or say it.

Yes, and you have proven that your opening line is false. To denominate means to separate and delineate from something else. All the deniminations were formed (and continue to form) through how they differentiate themselves from Catholicism.

Oh brother;

Denominate \Denom"inate, a. [L. denominatus, p. p.]
Having a specific name or denomination;
[1913 Webster]

The RCC is a denomination. Look it up.

 

[Snow]

A denomination of what, from where?

Are you processing?

It is the largest Christian denomination on planet earth. Whaddidya think? That it was Hindu?

 

[kevangreen]

It’s hardly a preposterous claim. It’s a belief that has been taught one way or another but the majority of non-RCC denominations. The reason that there are 38,000 other Christian denominations in the world is because they don’t buy into the RCC claims.

1. I am not anti-Catholic
2. I do not try to justify disobedience of authority.

… so you are mistaken on both counts in my case.

how can we be a denomination with 1.2 billion
when any other church has a max of 80 million?
the bible was finished in 47ad
well before 340

Why exactly?

Do you think God is not capable of causing or inspiring men, even apostates, to do his will?

I think that he is and he did.

Not being a coward does nothing to prove that you have authority from God. It just means you are committed to your convictions, not that your convictions were correct.

But for that matter, Constantine did have to resorts to threats of exile and death to get his way at Nicea. It worked.

It was only a heresy after the fact. Prior to Nicea, subordinationism was the orthodox position.

Yep - excellent point and when the boss spoke, the bishops jumped.

Constantine didn’t care what the outcome was and had little appreciation for the doctrinal significance of it all. That Constantine did not understand the significance of the Arian controversy is suggested by his characterization of it as a “trifling” issue. In a letter Constantine repeatedly criticized Arius and Bishop Alexander for disputing about matters of no real significance. There are many references to this; for example: John Holland Smith, Constantine the Great, p 191.

There’s no need to explain anything. He threatened them, they complied. On the handful that did not comply, he followed through with his threats. There’s no need to get inside their heads about it.

Do you own a dictionary? Look it up:

thefreedictionary.com/denomination

It doesn’t bother me. I would be bothered if they didn’t think it or say it.

Oh brother;

Denominate \Denom"inate, a. [L. denominatus, p. p.]
Having a specific name or denomination;
[1913 Webster]

The RCC is a denomination. Look it up.

 

[kevangreen]

kevangreen:
the word denomination wasent used until after the protetant
brake, so we were a church before the word denomination “affected us”
or ment anything

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Martin Luther started the heresy known as Protestantism - though it has been expanded upon by other heretics (i.e., Calvin, Zwingli, etc.). Yes, there were other heresies and schism before Luther, but none that were of the Protestant heresy.

Really, then could you please explain,

1. John Wycliffe (ca 1320-1384)
2. Jan Huss (ca 1369-1415)
3. Jerome of Prague (ca 1379-1416)
4. Girolamo Savonarola (ca 1452-1498), who was a Dominican priest in Florence, Italy who condemned moral corruption of the clergy to include Pope Alexander VI, yet was burnt to death in 1498.

I’ll be waiting your response.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

catholic dont believe we are the perfect church cause
we believe you can be baptized in any church to go to heaven
even people who have not been baptized.
but mormon they believe you HAVE to be baptized mormon
to go i.e those heretical baptisms for the dead
( sounds like a cult)

I think you need to study Pope Benedict’s veiw on this a little bit more. Try reading his approved document “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church” and “Dominus Iesus” (written before his Popish appointment at the time he was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith).

 

[kevangreen]

Really, then could you please explain,

1. John Wycliffe (ca 1320-1384)
2. Jan Huss (ca 1369-1415)
3. Jerome of Prague (ca 1379-1416)
4. Girolamo Savonarola (ca 1452-1498), who was a Dominican priest in Florence, Italy who condemned moral corruption of the clergy to include Pope Alexander VI, yet was burnt to death in 1498.

I’ll be waiting your response.

the first split wasn’t until 1604,
how can you have a denomination of one church?

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

the first split wasn’t until 1604,
how can you have a denomination of one church?

Your claim was there was no “Protestantism” (meaning not protests against the doctrines of the church) going on before Luther. That which I produced and posted shows otherwise. I’m still waiting for your explaination on these.

 

[kevangreen]

Your claim was there was no “Protestantism” (meaning not protests against the doctrines of the church) going on before Luther. That which I produced and posted shows otherwise. I’m still waiting for your explaination on these.

if they used the st. Josephs bible they were brothers,
the kjv that came out officially in 1604, started protestant churches

 

[kevangreen]

if they used the st. Josephs bible they were brothers,
the kjv that came out officially in 1604, started protestant churches

kinda how there was an US before the declaration of independence
the signing of the document just officiated a feeling that was there for a awhile
but official is what counts.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

the first split wasn’t until 1604,
how can you have a denomination of one church?

Hmm, currently there are two factions within the RCC, those who are Liberal and those who are Fundamentalists. Those who wish to abide by what they believe were the intents of Vatican II and those whose wish to redefine Vatican II along the lines set forth by Pope Benedict in 2007. Face it my friend, a spit within the church is possible, eventhough it may not be called a denomination. It’s happen now, it happened then.