All knowing God creates Angels who turn against him

  • Thread starter Thread starter richardeekw
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

richardeekw

Guest
We acknowledge that God is Perfect in every way and knows the beginning and end of everything.
We also acknowledge that God does not need anything in the Unity of the Communion of the Trinity.

Yet God created the angels (Spirits) first; knowing that some under Lucifer will revolt against Him. This starts the stream of evil with His later creation…Man.

Why did god allow this to happen? Love?.
Your thoughts please.
 
Of course love. Pure love (and God is pure love) demands objects upon which to bestow that love. So God created 'em!
 
If God gave humans the gift of free-will to humans and we openly rebel and turn against him, is such a stretch of the imagination that He would do the same for angels?
 
Free will is a precious gift of God. And, what God gives He does not take back.

However, He does provide the means to overcome evil, and He did so in an awesome, loving way.
 
Well, I guess He knows the end of the story too, and decided that it was all worth the trouble…
 
Why did god allow this to happen? Love?.
Hi Richard,

Been awhile. 🙂

I don’t know why. I think some things we aren’t meant to know or understand - but just to trust in the love of God and His power to bring about an even greater good by deciding to create beings He knew would reject Him.

There are a couple of Scripture passages I like to think of when it comes to mysteries such as the one you brought up.

*Deut. 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Ecclesiasticus/Sirach 3:22-25 (Douay) Seek not the things that are too high for thee, and search not into things above thy ability, but the things that God hath commanded thee, think on them always, and in many of His works be not curious. For it is not necessary for thee to see with thy eyes those things that are hid. In unnecessary matters be not over curious, and in many of His works thou shalt not be inquisitive. (Sirach 3:21-22 in NAB) *

God bless,
Nita
 
We acknowledge that God is Perfect in every way and knows the beginning and end of everything.
We also acknowledge that God does not need anything in the Unity of the Communion of the Trinity.

Yet God created the angels (Spirits) first; knowing that some under Lucifer will revolt against Him. This starts the stream of evil with His later creation…Man.

Why did god allow this to happen? Love?.
Your thoughts please.
If God only did things that you could rationally understand, then God wouldn’t be perfect, now would He?😃
 

(this is in no relation to the above post)

Yes, God is truly all - knowing but he need not be ashamed of anything which His creations have committed! HE has NOTHING to be ashamed of. He is neither the cause, directly or indirectly, of the wrongdoings of His creatures (from the word “create”), for the will of each individual creature is expressed distinct from other entities.

Besides, can you truly love unless you are free? :rolleyes:
 
But we still have children when some of them may revolt against God. It still is better to create creatures that can love and serve God even though some turn out otherwsie.
 
I think in part it is a mystery, but there is a general answer: of course, God foresaw the fall of the angels. And he knew that their fall would be irredeemable. For the angelic intellect is unimpeded by physical steps. After the revelation, the angelic intellect is able to comprehend the whole plan of the physical creation and understand it completely, so that the first choice of the angel is its last. And, admitttedly, the allowance of demonic influence in Salvation is not something that God could not help, as if Christ would say, “my hands are tied, I couldn’t stop the devil from tempting if I wanted to.” No, God is only allowing demonic activity in order that, as one poster put it, that He may draw a greater good from it.

And the ultimate greater good is that another type of fallen creature might be restored to love and then go on to love God and other creatures in a GREATER way than if he had never fallen to begin with. In short, something (suffering) that entered the human condition precisely because of human fault has been transformed so as to have the potential to be something proactively redemptive rather than punishment, that is, redeemed human creatures can now unite their sufferings with Christ and merit graces for others.

Yes, the dragon has seven heads and ten horns, the exact anatomy as the beast, for as the beast symbolizes the ages of sin across all of salvation history, so then the dragon and his forces are precisely those that have instigated these ages of sin in the human drama. And yet, in each successive stage, God “slays” the respective heads of the beast through great acts of Redemption that draw a greater good from the sin than if the sin had never occurred to begin with.

Consider a perennial example, the persecutions of pagan Rome. For no sooner does Christ ascend than the dragon wages war to prevent the conversion of the world. He “accused” the Christians of being cannibles and insurrectionists and orchestrated the worst persecution of the Church ever, and yet it back-fired. For precisely by the witness of the fearless and great courageous men, women, and even children, who endured unthinkable tortures out of love for God, the paganism of Rome fell and Christianity triumphed. For the witness of love and courage of the martyrs glorified God in a way that is far greater than if man had never fallen. That is, the glory of the power and grace of God shining through human weakness, in the moments of unspeakable pain, shows a love and beauty that glorifies God infinitley more than if Adam and Eve had never fallen.

Also consider the mystics’ take on what God will do with our mess. For we can surmise that even after the dragon was cast out of heaven to earth, he said to God, “OK, I wasn’t able to stop the conversion of the Gentiles, but I can undo it. I can create a religious can of worms over the next 1700 years, forming religious factions and gray areas and confusion and scandal so that when I’m done, the world will actually lose the faith nearly altogether”. And God says, “OK, fine. Go ahead! Because I’ll use it for a restoration. Indeed, go ahead and divide my children. For when the world finally becomes apostate, they’ll experience the consequences of all the errors you propogate, they’ll see the darkness for what it is, and they’ll reembrace the light, all of it, and when they do, there will truly be a Sabbath rest ,my will WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
 
If God only did things that you could rationally understand, then God wouldn’t be perfect, now would He?
Why does one’s inability to rationally understand a being’s action therefore make either it or the being who does it perfect rather than merely incomprehensible?
 
Because pure love is self-giving. There must be something to which it is given.
So a God who is Love is, then, incomplete unless there also exists an object external to Himself to be the recipient of that love? He requires the object in order to complete Himself rather than existing whole, perfect and complete within Himself? If that object were to cease to exist, the God would also cease to exist as a perfect Being?

“Want” I could see. “Enjoy” I could see. “Require” or “demand” seems an odd theological position for a Catholic…
 
Why does one’s inability to rationally understand a being’s action therefore make either it or the being who does it perfect rather than merely incomprehensible?
I didn’t say that a being who does non-rationally-understood actions is necessarily perfect.

But a being who is perfect, necessarily does things that are not-rationally understood.
 
So a God who is Love is, then, incomplete unless there also exists an object external to Himself to be the recipient of that love? He requires the object in order to complete Himself rather than existing whole, perfect and complete within Himself? If that object were to cease to exist, the God would also cease to exist as a perfect Being?

“Want” I could see. “Enjoy” I could see. “Require” or “demand” seems an odd theological position for a Catholic…
Incomplete in the same sense as Paul proclaims that his sufferings make up for what is lacking in Christ’s suffering. The incompleteness is not in the being, but in our participation in that being.
 
So a God who is Love is, then, incomplete unless there also exists an object external to Himself to be the recipient of that love? He requires the object in order to complete Himself rather than existing whole, perfect and complete within Himself? If that object were to cease to exist, the God would also cease to exist as a perfect Being?

“Want” I could see. “Enjoy” I could see. “Require” or “demand” seems an odd theological position for a Catholic…
“Require” or “demand” is not the Catholic position. God does not require an object external to Himself to be a recipient of His love. God is a Trinity - three Persons in the one Godhead. Love is given and received between the three Persons within the one God.

God “desired” to create others to love - and so He did.

Nita
 
If God only did things that you could rationally understand, then God wouldn’t be perfect, now would He?😃
Re underlined part:
Might have been better to say “then God wouldn’t be God” -
since rationally understanding all He did would make our intellect equivalent to His (we are equal to God) or vice versa (God no greater than humans).

Nita
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top