All Knowing God

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nzbeef

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"I’m trying to find God, though there are many obstacles i’m still trying to find my way. If anyone could help me that would be great. Here goes the first question:

If God is all knowing and he knows what we would look like from our birth till our death, and he would know what path we would choose and what we would do in the end, doesn’t it mean that we have no free choice? And that whoever goes to heaven or hell has been predetermined before the birth of that person. Because if he knows that this child is going to be a murderer and going to hell in the end, then why bother punishing him by sending that soul to hell when initially God knew he was going to murder and therefore commit the sin and go to Hell? the same goes for someone who does good. Does it mean that in fact we do not have a choice? I’m sorry to pose such a question but its been creating a lot of doubts in me, and i want to clear it. Its not meant as an attack or anything. Thank you."

I hope this is not a dumb question or anything, i just want to learn thats all. cheers.
 
I have been having the same questions. I think that is why I am up right now and can’t sleep.
 
I know what you mean. I’m attending RCIA classes, and i am afraid that if i mention this, i might cause some others to lose their faith. I don’t know who to talk to regarding my questions, but i want to know God, i want to have faith … Can’t sleep until i find the truth…lol…i’m a sad case.
 
It’s not predetermination, its just predestination.

God’s foreknowledge includes our free choices. He creates the people he knows will go to hell, exactly because they prove that our choice really is free. If he only created people who chose good, we wouldn’t really be free. But the fact that hell exists, indirectly glorifies God…by testifying to the reality of free will.

All people have the potential to choose good and repent every moment that they live. For this reason, out of justice, God lets them live to give them a “chance” to choose good…even though he already knows the ultimate outcome, because He exists in eternity and sees all time at once. But he must let them commit the act actually, not merely condemn them because they “would have” or anything like that.

Its hard for us to imagine, but philosophical sound…though a very deep and contentious subject as to the fully expounded solutions.
 
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batteddy:
It’s not predetermination, its just predestination.

God’s foreknowledge includes our free choices. He creates the people he knows will go to hell, exactly because they prove that our choice really is free. If he only created people who chose good, we wouldn’t really be free. But the fact that hell exists, indirectly glorifies God…by testifying to the reality of free will.

All people have the potential to choose good and repent every moment that they live. For this reason, out of justice, God lets them live to give them a “chance” to choose good…even though he already knows the ultimate outcome, because He exists in eternity and sees all time at once. But he must let them commit the act actually, not merely condemn them because they “would have” or anything like that.

Its hard for us to imagine, but philosophical sound…though a very deep and contentious subject as to the fully expounded solutions.
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Keep in mind this is a friendly debate:

But if God knows what our “free choices” are, then it really isn;t a choice or free will? Because he made us knowingly that we will make that choice, whether good or bad. If he wanted to save us, and bring us all to heaven, he would have made everyone good, so that there is no need to repent. Its like if i create a new breed of rats, who will kill its own kind. But i give those rats a choice, if they chose not to kill i will keep them alive, if not i kill them. But i know that they can’t do that because i made them to kill each other. Hmm…my example doesn’t really sound right,lol, but its hard for me to explain it out, hope you understand. So infact we never really had a free choice because God already knows who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell? Man this questions are killing me…please explain clearer in lay man terms, i’m not a very smart man…and my english isn’t very good, i’m actually from Malaysia…thank you for replying as well. 🙂 Cheers
 
Let me put this to you; if I know that there will be a train arriving to the station at 11am does that forknowledge mean I made it get there? You will say no the train got there irrespective of my knowledge.

The argument at the end always tend to be why did God just not make us uncapable to sin so every one is saved. But then what is the point of our faith.

Is the point of having faith sort of getting the winning ticket for eternal life? nope not really. Christianity is not a search of how to evade death or to get something in return for believing in Christ. It is about fulfilling our relationship with God. A relationship is fulfilled when there is total self denial due to the love one has. Self denial needs as a pre-requiste the capacity of choice. If God does not give us choice can love trully be love?

So God cannot cheat for you and allow you to win.God cannot force you to love Him hence you need to decide to do so to be saved. What God knows is irrespective to what you decide. At the end it was your decision and God needed it to be your decision in order for love to prevail.He does not make people with a “saved” or “condemed” tag but with a “free to choose/love”. So to remove the tag is to remove the capacity for a real relationship.

God created you in his image gave you all the graces possible, a consience, Christ, his Church, sacraments, the Holy Spirit, the Bible the wonder of nature etc… to get to know and love Him. What else does one need.

Your brother in Christ

Alex
 
First off, this is IMHO the absolutely hardest issue in philosophy/theology. So if it causes you troubles, you are in good company.

The train analogy is pretty good. Boethius in the 6th century deals with the issue at the end of his Consolation of Philosophy. That might be a good thing to read. His approach is to acknowledge that knowledge does entail necessity – if I or God knows something, it must be that way. If I know you wrote the original post, you must have written it, and could not have not written it. But that is based on the “if” – it is conditional. If I see you sitting, you must be sitting. But this kind of necessity does not make what is known happen by necessity. If I see you sitting, it is necessary for you to be sitting , but your sitting is also a free act. While your sitting is necessary from the fact that it is known (conditional) it is still free. [In fact, your free decision to sit, causes my knowledge to be necessary.]

This works with our knowledge of the present and past. So, Boethius argues, it works with God’s knowledge of the future. God, being outside of time, sees all times in an eternal now. Our future actions are present to God, who knows them, and so are conditionally necessary – if God knows them (will know them) they cannot be different. But we still detemine them, and so they are not caused by necessity, but are free.

There might still be problems with Boethius’ approach, but as a beginning, I think his solution works pretty well. God knows what we will choose, but He does not cause us to act with necessity and destroy our freedom.

But the deeper issue is why does God create people whom he knows will sin and go to hell? The best answer to that is that He brings greater good out of the situation than if he didn’t create this person with their sins. The world, in the long run and final analysis, is better for His having created people who sinned. How can that be? How can it be better for a murderer to exist than for him not to? It is only because there was a murder that the victim or the victim’s family can forgive him, and the murderer himself can repent. Repentence, forgiveness and redemptions are goods that require sin and death, and they are greater goods whose existence outweighs the evil of the sins and sinners.

The Church expresses this in her liturgy on the Easter Vigil “Oh happy fault of Adam that won for us such a Redeemer.” It is good that Adam sinned because it is because of that sin that the Son of God became man. And it is good that Jesus, the only truly good man who is God, too, died (the worst sin, ever) because that won redemption for all of our sins.

God allows sin and sinners in order to redeem them and to make the world better than if they had never happened. Some may not be redeemed and so end in eternal punishment (but even the justice of this is better than there being no sin at all). Sometimes it is hard to see this (especially after terrorist attacks like in London), but we have our faith to tell us it is so.
 
Wow, thanks a lot, ok aridite, your posts makes a lot more sense and its a lot clearer, thanks. Do you know where i can get an online copy of Boethius? i just wanna learn more. Seriously…i actually am starting to understand things now. Are there any other reading material for me to check out on? and one more thing, is it right for me to do so much research on a religion and ask so many questions before i accept the faith? i can’t seem to accept it fully with all these doubts? my friends asked me to just not think so much and just believe, but i find it hard to swallow. Cheers…thanks once again to all of you who answered my posts…
 
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nzbeef:
Wow, thanks a lot, ok aridite, your posts makes a lot more sense and its a lot clearer, thanks. Do you know where i can get an online copy of Boethius? i just wanna learn more. Seriously…i actually am starting to understand things now. Are there any other reading material for me to check out on? and one more thing, is it right for me to do so much research on a religion and ask so many questions before i accept the faith? i can’t seem to accept it fully with all these doubts? my friends asked me to just not think so much and just believe, but i find it hard to swallow. Cheers…thanks once again to all of you who answered my posts…
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The predestination vs. predetermination bit is probably much better than this explanation, but C.S. Lewis made this observation in the Screwtape Letters, which I thought was just fascinating.

God is all knowing, but wouldn’t you also concede that he is omnipresent (all present) too? God exists, not just everywhere at once, but everytime at once. God exists in the unbounded NOW. It’s to our disadvantage to think as mortals do-- we are finite, He is* in*finite. He knows what you choose at the second you choose it… and He knows it from all eternity because He is present at all points in time.

That’s a load to think about! 😛

The idea of predestination vs. predetermination is simpler, though. The key is that He knows it, but you choose your actions, and He knows because you have chosen… but God doesn’t have the same time constraints we have… mysterious… eh?
 
My brain seriously feels mushy now. This is seems harder than quantum physics, or rocket science. I think this will take some time to digest, and my noogies are all sapped out. At least i can sleep a bit better now.
 
After birth GOD gave ur freedom, a freedom to choose, our own will. It is now up to us if what of the two choices we are going to choose. The life towards GOD or the life toward evil. It is our choice not HIS.

GOD is so great that eventhough we are HIS creation still He gave us the freedom to choose and a free will. He is a loving GOD not an oppressor.
1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. the choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28
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nzbeef:

I am glad I and Boethius could help. If you want to read the Consolation yourself it is online at

etext.lib.virginia.edu/latin/boethius/boephil.html

Book V covers freewill and omniscience.

I don’t think it is bad to ask question and try to understand the faith – it is good and natural. Faith seeking understanding as Sts. Augustine and Anselm say. There is a wealth of material on the philosophy of religion/theology, but you should not let this distract you from your conversion. Coming to faith is about more than understanding, though understanding is an important part of it. Anything by Frank Sheed, Peter Kreeft or C.S. Lewis would give solid answers.

But you should realize that we will never completely understand everything about God and faith in this life. You should not make your understanding a condition of accepting the faith – as though the faith could be proven through necessary arguments. We can give reasons for our faith, and deepen our understanding of it, but these fall short of complete proof. There will always be things we accept because God (through the Church) tells us so. For instance, we cannot prove that God became man in Jesus or that God is a Trinity of Persons – we can know something about how these are so, and that they are not impossible. But we believe in these things because Jesus revealed them. Likewise, we will never know (in the sense of natural understanding), this side of heaven, if all the pain and sin in the world is in fact outweighed by the good God brings about because of it. We have faith that it is so, but ultimately this requires a leap and trust. I think it is quite understandable if a mother cannot see that there is some ultimate good that comes from the murder of the child dying in her arms. I think it is good to remember that there are limits to our understanding and that God’s grace is what allows us to accept the seeming incredible claims that Jesus is Lord and that all things work together for good under his care.
 
If God is almighty and all knowing he could prevent volcanoes, earthquakes, and so on which kill innocent and wicked people alike.
 
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catholicdoubter:
If God is almighty and all knowing he could prevent volcanoes, earthquakes, and so on which kill innocent and wicked people alike.
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Yes, he could. But apparently he allows these things in order to bring greater good out of them.
 
He allows suffering…so greater good can come out of them…isn’t that a utilitirian way of thinking? the choice that is best for everyone? Actually i have nothing against that, it kinda makes sense, like sacrifice 5 people to save a million…but thats just a matter of perspective and individual opinions.

The main question is, (still refering to my first post), why did God create humans at all? why create anything at all? I mean he already knew that humans were going to be like this, so why create us? why not just don’t create us, don’t create earth. don’t create anything? that way he won’t feel sad or betrayed by humans and also by Lucifer? Why create the situation…nvm…i think i’ll go read up more first before i post more :). Thanks for the link anyway, will read it up. Cheers. And Catholic doubter, why doubt? are you in the same situation like me as well? have you lost your faith?
 
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catholicdoubter:
If God is almighty and all knowing he could prevent volcanoes, earthquakes, and so on which kill innocent and wicked people alike.
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Why did GOD send His Only Son into this world? He knew that His Son will suffer a lot and even die on this world? Why?

Because with this tragedies we will learn a lot. We will know that GOD is really there. Because these tragedies will let us know GOD more, His power, His might. And if we will know GOD more because of this tragedies then we will renounce Satan.

When Jesus Christ died Satan thinks that he defeated GOD. But NO because when Jesus Christ ressurected He freed us from the bondage of sin.

This is the power of God, a mysterious one.
 
Maybe I am reading it wrong but it seems some are suggesting evil is neccessary for good to exist? This is not so.

However God can and does use the evil of the world to bring greater good. Yet evil is not essential for good to be manifest.

Also answering nzbeef’s Q

“Why did God make us?”

There are two ways of answering the question. It depends on whether we look at it from God’s point of view or from our own. Looking at it from God’s point of view the answer is, “God made us to show forth his goodness.” Since God is a Being infinitely perfect, the main reason why he does anything must be an infinitely perfect reason. But there is only one infinitely perfect reason for doing anything, and that is to do it for God. So it would be unworthy of God, it would be contrary to his infinite perfection, if he were to do something for a reason less than himself.

Perhaps we can see that better if we apply it to ourselves. Even for us, the highest and the best reason for doing anything is to do it for God. If I do something for another human being – even something noble, like feeding the poor – and I do it mainly just for that person, without referring it to God in any way, then it is an imperfect thing to do. Not a bad thing, but a less perfect thing. That would be true even if I did something for an angel or for our Blessed Mother herself, and left God out of the reckoning. There is just no higher motive for doing anything than to do it for God. That is true of the things God does, as well as it is true of the things that we do.

The first reason, then – the big reason why God made the universe and us – was to give glory to himself, by showing forth his infinite power and goodness. His infinite power is shown forth by the fact we exist. His infinite goodness is shown by the fact that he wills to share his own infinite love and happiness with us]

The Faith Explained 3rd Ed pages 3-4

Note: This book is sort of a CCC for dummies (like myself) I recommend it.

PS I do not work on sales

Cheers
 
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nzbeef:
If God is all knowing and he knows what we would look like from our birth till our death, and he would know what path we would choose and what we would do in the end, doesn’t it mean that we have no free choice? And that whoever goes to heaven or hell has been predetermined before the birth of that person. Because if he knows that this child is going to be a murderer and going to hell in the end, then why bother punishing him by sending that soul to hell when initially God knew he was going to murder and therefore commit the sin and go to Hell? the same goes for someone who does good. Does it mean that in fact we do not have a choice?
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First point: The Catholic/Christian concept of God is as the being that CREATED Linear Time, and is therefore NOT BOUND it. However, the universe He created, the laws of physics, and we humans ARE bound by Linear Time. Human Free Will (so far as choosing to accept and reject God are concerned) is also bound by Linear Time, for we are destined to die once and then face judgement.

The Catholic Church sees God as a being who is NOT bound by Linear Time. Because if God was limited by Linear Time, that would mean Linear Time was GREATER THAN GOD, which is impossible.

To God, Past, Present, and Future exist simultaneously. Being OUTSIDE of Linear Time as part of His basic nature, experiencing past, present, and future simultaneously, our God therefore can and does have omniscience of what happens INSIDE of Linear Time.

Our God can step into Linear Time and operate within the rules of Linear Time, in the universe where we exercise human Free Will, much like I can strap on a scuba tank and operate underwater. But He still carries with Him the knowledge He already has of our futures, knowledge obtained from existing outside of Linear Time, much as I as a scuba diver carry with me the knowledge that comes from operating outside the boundaries of water.

BTW, I got ahold of writings by Thomas Aquinas one day, and floored to find out he wrote much the same thing. Talk about being blown away…

Second point: What is the purpose of the universe? That’s where the theologians say that God wasn’t content to be alone and wanted someone to love with whom He could share eternity. Lots of someones. God created the universe and linear time because He knew that it would produce this result. Not everyone would join Him, but the ones who did would do so willingly and not as mindless zombies.

It’s a little like asking why a man would bother getting married, if he knows ahead of time that he will have no end of grief from in-laws, kids, and bills. A man marries because he also expects (doesn’t always get, but still expects) a lifetime of love that will transcend the grief, and be far more fulfilling than living alone.

If there’s more to it than that, I hope to see God in person one day when I can ask Him.
 
Nan S:
Second point: What is the purpose of the universe? That’s where the theologians say that God wasn’t content to be alone and wanted someone to love with whom He could share eternity. Lots of someones. God created the universe and linear time because He knew that it would produce this result.
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Sorry Nan S but God is not a lonely God. God needs nothing outside himself to be complete. He is perfect and does not need our love. God is triune, he is family. Father infinitely and perfectly loving the Son bringing forth the fruit of love, the Holy Spirit.

He chooses by adoption to incorporate us into the family that is Himself but not out of necessity but as a gift to show forth his goodness and power.

I recommend you to read Thomas Aquinas Shorter Summa (or revise if u already have done so) on his discussions on God. It is clear that he holds to the position that God needs nothing outside himself.

He is love so how can he need what is in essence himself in the perfect and infinite form?

Your brother in Christ

Alex
 
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alexaustralia:
Sorry Nan S but God is not a lonely God. God needs nothing outside himself to be complete. He is perfect and does not need our love. God is triune, he is family. Father infinitely and perfectly loving the Son bringing forth the fruit of love, the Holy Spirit. He is love so how can he need what is in essence himself in the perfect and infinite form?
Alex
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“God wasn’t content to be alone and wanted someone to love with whom He could share eternity” could probably have been worded better. That is an attempt to paraphrase of my American and Baltimore Catechisms: God created Man and the Angels to be know Him, love Him, serve Him, and be happy with Him forever in Heaven.

I wasn’t trying to imply that God was lonely, nor that he needed us. Rather, God created us because He wanted us.
 
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