All Knowing God

[Liberian]

nzbeef:

But if God knows what our “free choices” are, then it really isn;t a choice or free will? Because he made us knowingly that we will make that choice, whether good or bad. If he wanted to save us, and bring us all to heaven, he would have made everyone good, so that there is no need to repent.

NZ Beef,

What you are running into is confusing watching somebody do something with forcing somebody to do something. They are completely different. God will watch people make their own free choices to reject Him–and those people will choose themselves into Hell for that–but he does not force those people to make any such decision.

• Liberian

whose Malayalam is a lot worse than your English–I don’t even know if that’s the correct language. But I’m trying.

 

[aridite]

Some goods do require evils: compassion requires suffering to be compassionate about, like medicine requires deseases to cure, and repentance and forgiveness require a sin to repent of and to forgive. God allows some evil just so he can bring a greater good out of it. He knew we would sin, but allowed that to happen because his forgiveness of our sin is better than if we had never sinned.

God, being perfect, and perfectly good, was completely happy and self-sufficient. When he created, he did not do it so that he could be happier or make up for some deficiency (like loneliness). He created everything he did create so that creatures would share in his goodness and happiness. He created us, not to make himself happier or better, but so that there would be more goodness and happiness because of his action. Creation does not add to him, but lets us share in his goodness, which is better, but not better for him. That being said, God does not owe it to us to create us; he would be just as happy if he hadn’t. Instead he created us for our benefit.

 

[alexaustralia]

aridite:

Some goods do require evils: compassion requires suffering to be compassionate about, like medicine requires deseases to cure, and repentance and forgiveness require a sin to repent of and to forgive.

Following your analogy, if “Some goods need evil” and all goods are found in God then God needs evil.

Suffering and forgiveness are the manifestations of love in an evil environment/situation but are not evil in themselves. Jesus partook in suffering yet he could not have partaken in evil.

Compassion requires selflessness and love. On earth, due to the presence of sin, is manifested through suffering etc. Yet in heaven compassion is no longer manifested in suffering.

Evil is the absence of God just like dark is the absence of light. Yet in themselves both evil and dark are not something but rather the absence of something.

Cheers

Alex

 

[aridite]

alexaustralia:

Following your analogy, if “Some goods need evil” and all goods are found in God then God needs evil.

The necessity is conditional. IF God is going to forgive, THEN he has to have been wronged, there has to be the evil of sin. But God did not HAVE TO forgive – he would have been perfectly just to punish sin without redeeming it. He would have been perfectly just to create free persons who never sinned. Creation of any sort is a gratuitous good, and does not benefit him, and so in an absolute sense he does not need to create at all, or create one universe over another.

Forgiveness is a greater good than the good of creatures who never sinned. So, God is justified in allowing the evil of sin in order to bring greater good from it. He can manifest more of his goodness by being merciful and compassionate, but in order to do so, there has to be sin and suffering for there to be mercy and compassion. He would have been just as good without manifesting these attributes, but the manifestation of these attributes outweighs, and so justifies, the existence of the corresponding evils.

alexaustralia:

Suffering and forgiveness are the manifestations of love in an evil environment/situation but are not evil in themselves. Jesus partook in suffering yet he could not have partaken in evil.

Right, I’m not saying compassion and forgiveness are evil, but require (in the logic of the concepts) suffering and sin which are evil. Jesus could not have sacrificed himself on the cross if he had not died, and death is evil. The concept of sacrifice requires an evil to be suffered. It is not necessary (in an absolute sense) for Jesus to suffer to redeem us, but IF he was to redeem us by his sacrifice, he HAD TO (it was conditionally necessary for him to) suffer the evil of death – and there had to be a sin for him to redeem.

alexaustralia:

Compassion requires selflessness and love. On earth, due to the presence of sin, is manifested through suffering etc. Yet in heaven compassion is no longer manifested in suffering.

I think you can have love in heaven without suffering, but I don’t think its right to call it compassion.

alexaustralia:

Evil is the absence of God just like dark is the absence of light. Yet in themselves both evil and dark are not something but rather the absence of something.

Cheers

Alex

Right, I agree, evil is a privation, the lack of goodness that should be there.

 

[nzbeef]

Wow. Thanks guys. I actually understand more now. Seriously i can’t thank you guys enough that you’re helping me make sense of the whole thing.

 

[reen12]

Jesus told us that there was a hell.

He didn’t tell us if anyone was actually in hell, or would
be in hell.

I believe that God calls to the dying soul, no matter
what that human has done in his/her lifetime. [Recall
the Good Thief]. He offers mercy and forgiveness,
in that last, split-second of life.

Why would God create a soul who would reject that
last call? I don’t look for any human being to explain
that to me. I trust in the mercy and love of God and
His plan. “My ways are not your ways…”

How could we possibly know if any soul has rejected
that last-second call? I don’t see it as a problem of
logic: “How could He…?” I see it as trusting the
love of the Father, and accepting the limitations of
my logical mind.

Does that make sense?

reen12

 

[tossolul]

My thoughts (however they may be incorrect) are these…

I believe the phrase that I’ve heard a few times in reference to our final judgement in heaven by Jesus - as people actually choosing hell rather than Heaven goes something like this…

Jesus goes over our lives with us, every word said, every action done, every reason behind every action. We have free choice for all of these. This is when we pay… When we did ‘said’ action, did we try to do what Jesus did, and make the choice for the narrow road that was available to us, and ask for Help from God for directions - or did we go it alone, listening to only ‘self’ and taking the wide road without thinking of the consequences. THis is where our free choice choses sin, and Hell if not repented for. And that is why some people, even though put on this earth meant to go to heaven, end up in Hell for all eternity. If we let ourselves give into temptation (the devil) and do not repent- we are making the choice to spend eternity without Godl.

God gives us the resources to make it to heaven, but if we do not use what is given to us, and chose only ‘self’ or the road of the flesh, we are actually telling God that we do not wish to be in heaven with him, and when it comes time for our judgement He will point this out to us- and there will be nothing for us to say but Yes God you are right, I did chose Hell over Heaven…

Yes God knows what we will choose, but in order to chose the right road, we HAVE to ask for God’s help. The people who do not seek out God, are not using their resources and will not be able to receive the many blessings God has waiting for them.

This life is like school in many ways. God will not give us the next lesson, until we finish the first. Those who think it unneccesary to learn the lessons will not be able to attend the party at the end of the year.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello nzbeef,

Time is the measure of change between matter, energy and empty space all of which God created. God exists before time, after the end of time and is omni-present to the whole of physical time. Our Spiritual God is not confined by the physical time which He created in anyway. Never underestimate the power of God.

You have free will and can choose whether or not you will love and obey God during your physical time on earth. God is spiritually omni-present to the whole of your physical life.

Please visit Jesus Loves God which takes a look at how Jesus was fully free willed man and fully eternal God, present at creation, in the same Being during His physical life on earth.