"all opposition ( to Mormonism ) comes ultimately from Satan"

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad,

You said to me, “. . .For you to insist that we believe this is just as stupid. . .”

I did not insist on anything. I asked you two questions, which you still have not answered.

I will ask them again:

Do you dismiss the writings of Founder, and First Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith due to the age of his writings?

At what point in history did the Mormon Prophets and Apostles speak truth?

Anna

Anna, I believe that I answered your question very clearly and completely. I even used the word ‘dismiss’ in that answer.

 

[dianaiad]

Are your prophets simply expressing their opinions, or are they truly prophets receiving revelations from God???

Anna

That depends upon whether they are saying 'thus saith the Lord" and their words are canonized, or whether they are expressing their opinions. Prophets have never been perfect. In fact, all during the OT times (and the NT times, for that matter,) the scriptures have been rather scrupulous in noting that the prophets all had their problems–they all had faults. They weren’t God’s puppets, becoming instantly unable to do anything but what God instructed them to do. They had free will, they had brains, and they had opinions. Sometimes those opinions were not correct. However, when they spoke AS prophets, and their words were accepted as scripture, that’s when they were 'truly prophets recieving revelations from God."

Noah was a prideful, arrogant twit. Abraham was a liar. Lot was terminally stupid–and was not really a moral giant. (He wasn’t much of a prophet, either, even IF angels appeared to him.) then there is Samson, who should have been a prophet, but who used his freedom to choose extremely unwisely. Isaac–had some major parenting problems, and Jacob his son was a cheat–and compared to him Isaac was Father of the Year. Moses was a murderer and had a bit of a problem with pride, himself. Paul was stubborn and obnoxious, Peter was, in spite of his name, a bit of a vacilator and more than a bit of a coward…as I read the scriptures I have often wondered why the stories of these men included their character flaws so clearly. I think it’s because of this insistance you have that prophets BE God, rather than men through whom God sometimes speaks. Not ‘always’ speaks. Not ‘unable to have incorrect opinions and prone to express them,’ but ‘when God speaks to mankind, He does it through a prophet’. God choosing a man to speak through is what MAKES him a prophet. Doesn’t make him perfect. Doesn’t make him sinless. Doesn’t make him omnscient. It simply means that sometimes God speaks through him.

 

[dianaiad]

And Joseph Smith said the church was an abomination and its believers corrupt…this is the construct of Mormonism…

So if you take us away from the original construct that the Church ceased after the apostles, you have an American man-made church reflective of the Stone Campbell movement of the 1830’s…

I always look to the founders of religions…they are the kingpin so to speak of their beliefs.

The Lord God called us to be one. We have so many good and different charisms that bring forth the greatness of our faith…Mormons included have many gifts…and together…our common faith can restore our country against all the afflictions against us.

I wish all Christians, if they believe in the power of Christ’s death and resurrection, to learn to make the outward profession of faith with the sign of the Cross, Father, Son and Holy Spirit!!!

So…in order to be a Christian, one must make the sign of the cross? Interesting, on many levels.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would not say Satan…but all divisions come from the Evil One…I mean, they are in Catholic communities…and jealousy…

Why can’t we return to the construct of Jesus Christ…

Who said there is no male or female…(btw, I read Aquinas’ piece…women have defective genes…his thoughts…it was what he taught on faith and morals…St Augustine had quite a promiscuous life…and he said to determine whether or not a woman was pregnant you take something and swing it back and forth above her…this is not Catholicism…) Aquinas also did not think Mary was immaculately conceived…it took the Church almost 2,000 years to make that dogma…

The Franciscans were the ones who favored Mary in that way…they focus on descending into humility to serve…to embrace Christ’s humanity…

The more we return to where we really are before Christ, male or female, and embrace ours and Christ’s humanity…then we are approaching a sane place…when people focus on God too much and separate Christ’s humanity from Himself…then we tend to look at non-Christian human beings as pagans…

So we all need to see each other’s humanity …in Christ…He is the point of our restoration…

 

[Alegare21]

I’m not quite sure how the Mormon church (or any church for that matter) can say these types of things. The Catholic Church has been the same since the Apostles themselves (plus or minus a few small things). The beliefs have been the same since the beginning. If they would actually look at the early church fathers and their writings they would see this fact. The church didn’t change at all; this is seen by the disciples of the Apostles.

 

[dianaiad]

I’m not quite sure how the Mormon church (or any church for that matter) can say these types of things. The Catholic Church has been the same since the Apostles themselves (plus or minus a few small things). The beliefs have been the same since the beginning. If they would actually look at the early church fathers and their writings they would see this fact. The church didn’t change at all; this is seen by the disciples of the Apostles.

Define ‘small.’

 

[Alegare21]

“Small” as in devotions, orders, types of prayers, priestly celibacy (as far as i know), etc. The core system of beliefs of the Catholic Church has been the same since the beginning. The spreading of these beliefs is seen as far back as 40’s AD and 50’s AD, and on and on…

 

[benidict]

oh boyhere we go again!

 

[benidict]

That depends upon whether they are saying 'thus saith the Lord" and their words are canonized, or whether they are expressing their opinions. Prophets have never been perfect. In fact, all during the OT times (and the NT times, for that matter,) the scriptures have been rather scrupulous in noting that the prophets all had their problems–they all had faults. They weren’t God’s puppets, becoming instantly unable to do anything but what God instructed them to do. They had free will, they had brains, and they had opinions. Sometimes those opinions were not correct. However, when they spoke AS prophets, and their words were accepted as scripture, that’s when they were 'truly prophets recieving revelations from God."

Noah was a prideful, arrogant twit. Abraham was a liar. Lot was terminally stupid–and was not really a moral giant. (He wasn’t much of a prophet, either, even IF angels appeared to him.) then there is Samson, who should have been a prophet, but who used his freedom to choose extremely unwisely. Isaac–had some major parenting problems, and Jacob his son was a cheat–and compared to him Isaac was Father of the Year. Moses was a murderer and had a bit of a problem with pride, himself. Paul was stubborn and obnoxious, Peter was, in spite of his name, a bit of a vacilator and more than a bit of a coward…as I read the scriptures I have often wondered why the stories of these men included their character flaws so clearly. I think it’s because of this insistance you have that prophets BE God, rather than men through whom God sometimes speaks. Not ‘always’ speaks. Not ‘unable to have incorrect opinions and prone to express them,’ but ‘when God speaks to mankind, He does it through a prophet’. God choosing a man to speak through is what MAKES him a prophet. Doesn’t make him perfect. Doesn’t make him sinless. Doesn’t make him omnscient. It simply means that sometimes God speaks through him.

hi diana aside from their personal issues, and sinfulness. the prophet that claimed to speak from God, had to be correct in his predictions, 100% of the time. otherwise he would be labled a false prophet and stoned. you can find this written about in jeramiah. that being said, Joseph Smith was a false prophet. not one of his prophecies ever came true. also we have this in protestant circles such as pat robertson, who said the u.s. would be nuked or have a huge tidal wave in 2008 or 2009. saying it was a vision from the Lord. Peace be with you.

 

[why_me]

What about two Lds Missionaries approaching me as I walk into the Catholic Church in Logan Utah and ask me why I am going in? Then proceed to tell me about how my Church failed?
Its not just about comments made in the past. You know that, right?

I have no idea of this personal situation that you experienced. If mormon missionaries were doing this, they were wrong. Mormon missionaries should not be outside someone’s church claiming that their church failed. If I were you I would find the ward that these missionaries belong to and speak with their bishop. The problem would be solved.

 

[why_me]

so what about the LDS position (as stated in their scriptures) that all the creeds are abominations and those who profess them corrupt? that all other churches had ALL sacramental grace removed from them because of their failure? who inspires that?

The lds church is a restoration church. It came into existence because other creeds, according to god, were corrupted. There would be no reason for the lds church if that weren’t so.

The reformers came into existence because they believed that the catholic church needed to be reformed. Thus, we now have various protestant sects. However, in Utah, the lds church and the catholic church get along quite well and they both have a good working relationship. And in the end, that is what is important.

 

[vickimonica]

What were their names?

Because if any LDS missionary actually did that at the CAtholic church in Logan, I know the Mission President, the stake presidents and most of the missionaries serving there. If a couple of them really stopped you as you were going into a service, that is so very much against the rules that they should, and WILL, be disciplined.

 

[why_me]

LDS Missionaries are skilled in presenting lessons to potential converts. They know family & friends will often object to the lessons. So, early on, the missionaries present passages of Scripture such as the following:

Anna

My daughter is a lds missionary at this moment and she is not very skilled in presenting lessons. Most missionaries are not that skilled nor do they know that family and friends will often object to the lessons. They have a message and they want to present it. Many young men and women are serving in foreign countries attempting to speak the native language. How skilled can they be after learning a language for some weeks before presenting the discussions to a lds investigator?

 

[vickimonica]

Really now, Get this guys… I’ve always wanted to share my “experience” about the 2 mormon missionaries that converted me back in 1987 in Bethesda, MD. - So here goes.
The 2 “elders” (missionaries to you not familiar w/ the mormon religion) that "witnessed’ to me were tired of living in their “bare bones” apt., so they made friends w/ someone @ their “ward” who was an employee of a dept. store. This “upstanding” mormon (LOL) allowed these 2 missionaries to go into the store after hours and clean the store out. Furniture, housewares, ect. I was appalled when they themselves told me this. I should have reported them, but at that point I was new to the ward, and didn’t want to cause “drama”. Plus I was only 22. I will never again trust a mormon missionary.

 

[why_me]

Not to mention, why in the world would anyone listen to them today?

Many people listen to them today. And why not? They have a message to give and it may not be such a bad message. If my daughter were having problems with life and she were using drugs or abusing alcohol and she turned around her life because she became a mormon, I would thank god.

 

[why_me]

Are your prophets simply expressing their opinions, or are they truly prophets receiving revelations from God???

Anna

I hope that you realize that catholic popes said some humdingers in the past. What to do? Likewise for protestant reformers. People are not perfect. I am sure that Paul said some humdingers also, it is just that we have no record of it. I am sure that he said much more than what we have in the new testament.

 

[why_me]

I have asked the same questions before. Mormons have no answer.

A burning feelings…I’m sure was felt by Mormons “back then”, when their prophets were speaking opinion.

(No Catholic has ever believed Aquinas was a prophet.)

Many catholics source what the early fathers said and Aquinas is one of the most quoted. And I also know that many catholics look to Therese for guidance in her books or letters.
But these people were not perfect either and they would be the first to admit it.

But yes, I would agree that the world would be a wonderful place if we were all perfect. Was Paul perfect? Was James and Peter perfect?

 

[benidict]

I hope that you realize that catholic popes said some humdingers in the past. What to do? Likewise for protestant reformers. People are not perfect. I am sure that Paul said some humdingers also, it is just that we have no record of it. I am sure that he said much more than what we have in the new testament.

such as?

 

[why_me]

Really now, Get this guys… I’ve always wanted to share my “experience” about the 2 mormon missionaries that converted me back in 1987 in Bethesda, MD. - So here goes.
The 2 “elders” (missionaries to you not familiar w/ the mormon religion) that "witnessed’ to me were tired of living in their “bare bones” apt., so they made friends w/ someone @ their “ward” who was an employee of a dept. store. This “upstanding” mormon (LOL) allowed these 2 missionaries to go into the store after hours and clean the store out. Furniture, housewares, ect. I was appalled when they themselves told me this. I should have reported them, but at that point I was new to the ward, and didn’t want to cause “drama”. Plus I was only 22. I will never again trust a mormon missionary.

This is rather hard to believe and perhaps you misunderstood. So mormon missionaries go into a store at the invite of a worker and clean the store out? Most mormon missionaries have furniture in their apartment because in most cases they are not the first to be in it. Most likely, missionaries have been there before them. Plus, the ward or branch would furnish any missionary apartment. No mormon missionary would be in a bare boned situation.

However, it could go this way: the owner of the store who is a mormon invites the missionaries in to take some furniture for their apartment. Now that has happened before, I am sure.

I don’t think that mormon missionaries would willingly steal from a store.

 

[benidict]

Many catholics source what the early fathers said and Aquinas is one of the most quoted. And I also know that many catholics look to Therese for guidance in her books or letters.
But these people were not perfect either and they would be the first to admit it.

But yes, I would agree that the world would be a wonderful place if we were all perfect. Was Paul perfect? Was James and Peter perfect?

no, they were not perfect. but what they prophesied was perfect. if not, then they would have to be branded false prophets, according to the law. if they got one prophecy wrong, then they would be false. God with a capital G does not allow a prophet to be graded on a curve. he or she either IS a prophet, or they are NOT. no middle ground.