"all opposition ( to Mormonism ) comes ultimately from Satan"

[KathleenGee]

I do experience a need to bring light to the truth, and to protect people from charlatans or seducers of men’s wives, of people who are involved in charlatanism, use divination, live a double life, dupe people, use women for sex and domination…

It is all a bondage…

How do we know what is truth and what is not? Truth can’t be set up in a set of rules or guidelines…truth has its moral dimension…and that can only be expressed in a human being…the only perfect moral person was and is Jesus Christ…and for one, He exhorted men to be faithful to having only one wife until death do them part…

He spoke of those who remained celibate for the kingdom, that there was no marrying in heaven, that we are to renounce and die to ourselves daily and follow Him-- Jesus, no other…

That is just the beginning Truth revealed in Jesus Christ…whoever follows Him is lesser or false…why need new prophets?..new religions?

 

[Answersplease]

(color and bolding emphasis added as highlights to the original text)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-Mormons

Former President of the Mormon Church Brigham Young taught that members who openly disagree with church leaders are potentially cursed or condemned and that those who reject LDS doctrine or authority outright are “apostate.”[42] An early Mormon epistle teaches that apostates have “fallen into the snares of the evil one.”[43]

Young also said that "[if] there is a despicable character on the face of the earth, it is an apostate from this Church. He is a traitor who has deceived his best friends, betrayed his trust, and forfeited every principle of honor that God placed within him. They may think they are respected, but they are not. They are disgraced in their own eyes. There is not much honesty within them; they have forfeited their heaven, sold their birthright, and betrayed their friends."[44]

[42] ^ Brigham Young on personal apostacy
[43] ^ Smith, Joseph F. (1834-7). Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. p. 66. Although sometimes mistaken for a direct quote from Joseph Smith, this passage occurs in the book as part of “Excerpts from an Epistle of the Elders of the Church in Kirtland to Their Brethren Abroad”, edited by Oliver Cowdery and F. G. Williams as published in The Morning and the Evening Star.
[44] ^ Journal of Discourses/Volume 12. p.94. Brigham Young. 1867

 

[KathleenGee]

When it comes to Christianity, always put your focus on the founder, the times he lived in, the location – in terms of distance from the Seat of Peter, and what were his basic points. Some break off because of just one or two disagreements.

Anyway, I am praying a 54 day Novena to Our Lady of the Rosary for everyone at CAF as well as others as the world we live in is not doing well…

 

[Anna_Scott]

Dianaiad to Answersplease:

Interesting. Look how far back you had to go to get these quotes. . . .Please. Find something a little newer. YOu know, like—within my lifetime? Or yours?

Do you dismiss the writings of Founder, and First Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith due to the age of his writings? At what point in history did the Mormon Prophets and Apostles speak truth?

. . .if the writings are opinions (which they were) and they are wrong (which they were) then yes. I dismiss them. If those opinions are not codified in the LDS scriptures so as to be considered solid Mormon Doctrine, then yes, I dismiss them. . . .For you to insist that we believe this is just as stupid. . . .

You said to me, “. . .For you to insist that we believe this is just as stupid. . .” I did not insist on anything. I asked you two questions, which you still have not answered.

I will ask them again:

Do you dismiss the writings of Founder, and First Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith due to the age of his writings?

At what point in history did the Mormon Prophets and Apostles speak truth?

I believe that I answered your question very clearly and completely. I even used the word ‘dismiss’ in that answer.

That depends upon whether they are saying 'thus saith the Lord" and their words are canonized, or whether they are expressing their opinions. . . . .

If a prophet says, “God revealed to me”; does that count as a God given revelation or does the prophet have to say, “thus saith the lord”?

Keep in mind that in the Bible, one who “presumes to speak a word” in God’s name is acting as a prophet, regardless of whether or not he says “thus saith the lord.” (Deuteronomy 13:20)

. . . . .Prophets have never been perfect. In fact, all during the OT times (and the NT times, for that matter,) the scriptures have been rather scrupulous in noting that the prophets all had their problems–they all had faults. They weren’t God’s puppets. . . .However, when they spoke AS prophets, and their words were accepted as scripture, that’s when they were 'truly prophets recieving revelations from God.". . . .

The Old Testament reveals a very high standard for prophets. Please note that I am not advocating the stoning of anyone.

Deuteronomy 13 (ESV):
1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams.

For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.

5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Deuteronomy 18:
20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’—

22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Do you disagree with these passages regarding the test of a true prophet?

If you disagree with the Biblical test of a true prophet, please provide your source for the test of a true prophet in Mormonism.

. . . .Noah was a prideful, arrogant twit. Abraham was a liar. Lot was terminally stupid–and was not really a moral giant. (He wasn’t much of a prophet, either, even IF angels appeared to him.) then there is Samson, who should have been a prophet, but who used his freedom to choose extremely unwisely.
Isaac–had some major parenting problems, and Jacob his son was a cheat–and compared to him Isaac was Father of the Year. Moses was a murderer and had a bit of a problem with pride, himself. Paul was stubborn and obnoxious, Peter was, in spite of his name, a bit of a vacilator and more than a bit of a coward…

How does this relate to whether or not a person is a true prophet? . . .

…as I read the scriptures I have often wondered why the stories of these men included their character flaws so clearly. I think it’s because of this** insistance you have that prophets BE God**, rather than men through whom God sometimes speaks. Not ‘always’ speaks. Not ‘unable to have incorrect opinions and prone to express them,’ but ‘when God speaks to mankind, He does it through a prophet’.

When have I ever insisted that prophets be god? Never.

. . . God choosing a man to speak through is what MAKES him a prophet. Doesn’t make him perfect. Doesn’t make him sinless. Doesn’t make him omnscient. It simply means that sometimes God speaks through him.

Anyone can claim to be a prophet. Again, what is the Mormon test of a true prophet? Please provide your source.

Still await answers, Dianaiad.
Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

…That is the mystery to me…why people can believe in such a prophet…how do they defend his behavior? He contradicted Christ on the permanency of marriage…eyeglasses…first time such was used in Scripture…

Actually, the greatest number of miracles by Christ involved blindness…If one has the true faith, it is the Light of Christ within…no need for spectacles…Spirit is truth…

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad to Answersplease:

Still await answers, Dianaiad.
Anna

Anna, you made quite a list of conversational gambits that provided the very answers you insist upon. Thank you. That was a great deal of work!

So…having done all that, why on earth are you still asking?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, you made quite a list of conversational gambits that provided the very answers you insist upon. Thank you. That was a great deal of work!

So…having done all that, why on earth are you still asking?

I realize it is pointless. Getting a straight answer seems to be next to impossible. I really should have learned by now.

 

[Answersplease]

Quote about Brigham Young:

(color and underlining and bolding emphasis added as highlights to the original text)

mrm.org/no-salvation-without-joseph-smith

On July 13, 1862, Young declared, “…he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ” (JOD 9:312).

 

[KathleenGee]

Just as the Apostles were witnesses to Christ upon which our faith, spirit and tone is based, Bringham Young is the first witness to Joseph Smith.

 

[rainman10]

I am a bit confused here. Where in the Bible does God say, if you don’t like your church, just go and start another one, since I apparently didn’t do it right? Why would God abandon His Church that He started and start another one, that is supposedly a better Church?

And this new church that he started is very much unlike the original one? If he “restored” the early church by starting the mormon church, where is the restoration? My understanding of restoring something is to bring it back to it’s original state. I fail to see where the restoration is. Does God not know what “to restore” means? Did he mess up again?? Is it possible that there may be a restoration of the restored church, because He got it wrong again?

 

[dianaiad]

I am a bit confused here. Where in the Bible does God say, if you don’t like your church, just go and start another one, since I apparently didn’t do it right? Why would God abandon His Church that He started and start another one, that is supposedly a better Church?

And this new church that he started is very much unlike the original one? If he “restored” the early church by starting the mormon church, where is the restoration? My understanding of restoring something is to bring it back to it’s original state. I fail to see where the restoration is. Does God not know what “to restore” means? Did he mess up again?? Is it possible that there may be a restoration of the restored church, because He got it wrong again?

Well, here’s the thing, rainman…

We believe that the ‘church he started’ is exactly like the original one, you see. Organization is the same, teachings are the same, ordinances are the same…

 

[sablouwho]

Well, here’s the thing, rainman…

We believe that the ‘church he started’ is exactly like the original one, you see. Organization is the same, teachings are the same, ordinances are the same…

I don’t quite understand why many non-LDS don’t seem to understand this concept. I am not LDS. I understand the concept. It doesn’t mean I *agree *with it, but I can certainly understand it.

I undertstand why other never-Mo’s wouldn’t agree with it as well…but to not understand it…I just don’t get it.

I will supply another example to further illustrate the point…

I also understand, being Jewish an all, why Jews don’t accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Trust me, I very much understand that perspective, since I marinated in it my entire life up until 4 years ago. I still understand why Jews don’t “get” the Jesus thing. I happen to hold a different perspective on Jesus (obviously, since I’m a baptized Christian), but understanding the perspective of traditional Judaism doesn’t in any way “threaten” my faith in Christ.

Conceptually wrapping one’s mind around a concept is NOT the same as agreeing with or embracing said concept!

 

[rainman10]

Well, here’s the thing, rainman…

We believe that the ‘church he started’ is exactly like the original one, you see. Organization is the same, teachings are the same, ordinances are the same…

So, then, the original church taught that God was a man on earth at one time
and the original church taught that the man God impregnated the Virgin Mary,
the original church taught that the bread and wine are only symbolic,
that God is one of many gods and we can become gods one day and rule over our own “earth”,
that God the Father had his own father who rules over his own planet,
that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer (Satan) and they were both born in heaven by God the Father’s union with one of his many spirit wives,
that a woman can get to heaven, only through being married to a man in a Mormon temple,
that polygamy is totally acceptable?

And I guess it is safe to assume from all this, that the Mormon Church is the only true church because God, after almost 2000 years restored all these beliefs from His original Church, because He had decided the original Church was not worthy to continue here on earth?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Still await answers, Dianaiad.

Anna, you made quite a list of conversational gambits that provided the very answers you insist upon. Thank you. That was a great deal of work!

So…having done all that, why on earth are you still asking?

I realize it is pointless. Getting a straight answer seems to be next to impossible. I really should have learned by now.

**Dianaiad,

I’ve noticed, when the questions are difficult, you ignore them. Of course, I realize you have the right to ignore anything on the forums. We all do.

However, If you change your mind, here is the link to questions which you have ignored:**

Still await answers, Dianaiad.

Respectfully,
Anna