All Saints Day this year

[rondirect]

Can you tells us which dioceses retain the obligation to attend Mass?

Good question. All I can say is that I read on another site that in some countries, the obligation sticks. That was it. Then another site stated that it is the day not the HD that determines the obligation. In this case, since IC fell on a Sunday, Advent Sunday trumped it and it was transferred. Since the 9th is NOT the 8th (duh), the obligation to attend mass is lifted. The Catholic church in the USA has put so much importance on this HD, that they require the obligation to attend mass even on Saturday and Monday, why would they lift the obligation because it is the 9th and not the 8th? I am making only an assumption that some dioceses in the USA would do the same, but I bet there might have been some. I honestly do not remember what we did. It is not out of the question, whereas, Ascension in some USA dioceses still celebrate it on Thursday and do not transfer it to Sunday. I find there is no clear, one size fits all when it comes to our guidelines, and that is frustrating.

 

[JRS_88]

Good question. All I can say is that I read on another site that in some countries, the obligation sticks. That was it. I am making only an assumption that some dioceses in the USA would do the same. It is not out of the question, whereas, Ascension in some USA dioceses still celebrate it on Thursday and do not transfer it to Sunday. I find there is no clear, one size fits all when it comes to our guidelines, and that is frustrating.

Why get frustrated? Why not focus on your local area, diocese and your home parish and let it be?
Why not ask your parish priest? He’s right there.

 

[rondirect]

Why get frustrated? Why not focus on your local area, diocese and your home parish and let it be?
Why not ask your parish priest? He’s right there.

Oh, I do focus on my own diocese and home parish. I have too. Perhaps frustration was a bit strong, but I like things that a clear, concise and orderly for all.

 

[revert_jen]

Good question. All I can say is that I read on another site that in some countries, the obligation sticks. That was it. Then another site stated that it is the day not the HD that determines the obligation. In this case, since IC fell on a Sunday, Advent Sunday trumped it and it was transferred. Since the 9th is NOT the 8th (duh), the obligation to attend mass is lifted. The Catholic church in the USA has put so much importance on this HD, that they require the obligation to attend mass even on Saturday and Monday, why would they lift the obligation because it is the 9th and not the 8th? I am making only an assumption that some dioceses in the USA would do the same, but I bet there might have been some. I honestly do not remember what we did. It is not out of the question, whereas, Ascension in some USA dioceses still celebrate it on Thursday and do not transfer it to Sunday. I find there is no clear, one size fits all when it comes to our guidelines, and that is frustrating.

This states it (about Immaculate Conception when it falls on a Sunday) pretty clearly on the bottom of the second page (which, for some reason, is numbered 6): usccb.org/about/divine-worship/newsletter/upload/newsletter-2013-02.pdf

As for Ascension, well, it’s the only other feast that might be on one day or another in the United States. You’re only going to be in one diocese (whether it’s your home diocese or somewhere else), so you can look at their calendar, or ask a priest, or whatever.

A universal Church is going to be much more successful if it doesn’t not also have to be completely uniform in practice. There are rules that must be followed, but the rules themselves allow for some variation. That’s a good thing. I don’t actually need to know that people in Korea (or even Philadelphia) celebrate the Ascension on the same day I do, unless I’m travelling there.

Just my :twocents:

–Jen

 

[FrDavid96]

… why would they lift the obligation because it is the 9th and not the 8th? …

The reason is that there is an expectation that people in the US will know our national patronal feast day (Immaculate Conception) and know that it falls on December 8. So, even if it’s a Monday or a Saturday, people “should” know that they are obligated to attend Mass. It’s a perfectly reasonable expectation. (At least, it should be. Nowadays I sometimes wonder.)

On the other hand, when the observance of the Solemnity is moved (in most cases to Monday the 9th) there is less of an expectation that everyone will receive proper notice and be aware of the change. In theory it doesn’t have to be Monday, they (ie the US Bishops Conference) can move the observance to any day before or after that Sunday. They could move the observance to the Thursday-before or the Wednesday-after.

They have decided to dispense from the obligation (when it’s moved) because it places too much of a burden on people to consult their liturgical calendars to know which day they would need to attend Mass.

If a reader is thinking “gee, that’s not too hard, just look at the calendar or the parish bulletin” to that I would respond……

Look at all the confusion here on CAF about Holy Days being moved. It’s quite obvious from reading threads on CAF that average Catholic would be confused by the move. Hence the dispensation.

 

[rondirect]

The reason is that there is an expectation that people in the US will know our national patronal feast day (Immaculate Conception) and know that it falls on December 8. So, even if it’s a Monday or a Saturday, people “should” know that they are obligated to attend Mass. It’s a perfectly reasonable expectation. (At least, it should be. Nowadays I sometimes wonder.)

On the other hand, when the observance of the Solemnity is moved (in most cases to Monday the 9th) there is less of an expectation that everyone will receive proper notice and be aware of the change. In theory it doesn’t have to be Monday, they (ie the US Bishops Conference) can move the observance to any day before or after that Sunday. They could move the observance to the Thursday-before or the Wednesday-after.

They have decided to dispense from the obligation (when it’s moved) because it places too much of a burden on people to consult their liturgical calendars to know which day they would need to attend Mass.

If a reader is thinking “gee, that’s not too hard, just look at the calendar or the parish bulletin” to that I would respond……

Look at all the confusion here on CAF about Holy Days being moved. It’s quite obvious from reading threads on CAF that average Catholic would be confused by the move. Hence the dispensation.

Thank you Fr. David. I don’t see this thread as being in the state of confusion about Holy Days being moved. Basically (less Ascension, brought up once), IC is the only one, so how can that place a burden on anyone if proper announcement and bulletin coverage as you state is made. I really think this is kinda silly: the USCCB has made this holy day an important one for reasons known by all here, but then become lax on its importance when it is moved to Monday? Why? We wouldn’t do that for Christmas and Christmas in my opinion is more burdensome because of all the added masses and what time is the “Mass in the Night” or “Midnight Mass” as they will really ask. The reasoning is the dumbing down of American Catholics to look at their liturgical calendar, church bulletin or whatever. We do it for other holy days, so why is this one so burdensome? Sorry, but it makes no sense.

 

[CatholicZ09]

If I attend the 4Pm or 4:30PM Mass on Saturday, will this fulfill my obligation for All Saints Day?

I think it’s important to note that any Mass that is held after 4:00 p.m. (or at the time appointed by one’s diocese) on Saturday, October 31st or at any time on Sunday, November 1st will be in observance of All Saints. The 31st Sunday in Ordinary Time is trumped; the Solemnity of All Saints takes its place.

 

[Chatter163]

Good question. All I can say is that I read on another site that in some countries, the obligation sticks. That was it. Then another site stated that it is the day not the HD that determines the obligation. In this case, since IC fell on a Sunday, Advent Sunday trumped it and it was transferred. Since the 9th is NOT the 8th (duh), the obligation to attend mass is lifted. The Catholic church in the USA has put so much importance on this HD, that they require the obligation to attend mass even on Saturday and Monday, why would they lift the obligation because it is the 9th and not the 8th? I am making only an assumption that some dioceses in the USA would do the same, but I bet there might have been some. I honestly do not remember what we did. It is not out of the question, whereas, Ascension in some USA dioceses still celebrate it on Thursday and do not transfer it to Sunday. I find there is no clear, one size fits all when it comes to our guidelines, and that is frustrating.

I would suggest that there is a fair amount of assumption (no pun intended) and personal interpretation made here, rather than anything authoritative or official. As Fr. David has mentioned, the obligation is not in effect when the feast is transferred from Sunday to Monday. Might be best to leave it at that, until such time as you can locate official sources from American dioceses who retain the obligation that the bishops’ conference has dispensed. I don’t believe that (m)any will be forthcoming.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you Fr. David. I don’t see this thread as being in the state of confusion about Holy Days being moved. Basically (less Ascension, brought up once), IC is the only one, so how can that place a burden on anyone if proper announcement and bulletin coverage as you state is made.

For one thing, it’s the condition you stated “if proper announcements are made.” That doesn’t always happen. Also, many people don’t pay a whole lot of attention to announcements. One might think they do, but I can testify that that just does not happen.

There are any number of reasons why people might not be aware of the change.

Every time a Holy Day gets moved, right here at CAF there will inevitably be several threads about the topic and many people do indeed express confusion. That’s an indication that the general Catholic population is even less aware—because the Catholics who bother to participate in online discussions are the type to be more informed in the first place.

I really think this is kinda silly: the USCCB has made this holy day an important one for reasons known by all here, but then become lax on its importance when it is moved to Monday? Why?

I just answered the “why?”
Because when the Feast is moved to a day other than December 8, it makes the situation more complicated and less predictable.

We wouldn’t do that for Christmas and Christmas in my opinion is more burdensome because of all the added masses and what time is the “Mass in the Night” or “Midnight Mass” as they will really ask. The reasoning is the dumbing down of American Catholics to look at their liturgical calendar, church bulletin or whatever. We do it for other holy days, so why is this one so burdensome? Sorry, but it makes no sense.

It’s different because Christmas is never moved. It is always on December the 25th. It never gets moved to Monday or Friday or Wednesday, so people always know well ahead of time when Christmas will be. Christmas is also a secular holiday, so we don’t have the issue of celebrating the Feast on a day that is a working day for most of society.

I can tell you right now that Christmas will be on December 25, no matter what year, no matter what day of the week it occurs, for the rest of my lifetime, without ever having to consult a calendar. On the other hand, I don’t know when (or if) the Immaculate Conception might be moved in the future without consulting a calendar.

What makes the Immaculate Conception different is that with most other Holy Days, the obligation is automatically lifted if it falls on Saturday or Monday, or if it’s moved (as the Annunciation is almost always moved). Since it’s our Patronal Feast, the US Bishops have a higher (not a lower) standard for dispensing from the obligation to attend Mass–compared to the other Holy Days, excepting Christmas.

 

[coachdennis]

May be the solution is to move all of these feasts to Sundays in Ordinary Time. That way we’ll all now when to show up.

Quite honestly, in the workplace I have co-workers who can’t remember when the monthly meeting is held and where – and their paycheck depends on it!

I am looking forward to the upcoming season of feasts on CAF. Any church secretary will tell you her favorite call is “What time is Midnight Mass?”

 

[rondirect]

For one thing, it’s the condition you stated “if proper announcements are made.” That doesn’t always happen. Also, many people don’t pay a whole lot of attention to announcements. One might think they do, but I can testify that that just does not happen.

There are any number of reasons why people might not be aware of the change.

Every time a Holy Day gets moved, right here at CAF there will inevitably be several threads about the topic and many people do indeed express confusion. That’s an indication that the general Catholic population is even less aware—because the Catholics who bother to participate in online discussions are the type to be more informed in the first place.

I just answered the “why?”
Because when the Feast is moved to a day other than December 8, it makes the situation more complicated and less predictable.

It’s different because Christmas is never moved. It is always on December the 25th. It never gets moved to Monday or Friday or Wednesday, so people always know well ahead of time when Christmas will be. Christmas is also a secular holiday, so we don’t have the issue of celebrating the Feast on a day that is a working day for most of society.

I can tell you right now that Christmas will be on December 25, no matter what year, no matter what day of the week it occurs, for the rest of my lifetime, without ever having to consult a calendar. On the other hand, I don’t know when (or if) the Immaculate Conception might be moved in the future without consulting a calendar.

What makes the Immaculate Conception different is that with most other Holy Days, the obligation is automatically lifted if it falls on Saturday or Monday, or if it’s moved (as the Annunciation is almost always moved). Since it’s our Patronal Feast, the US Bishops have a higher (not a lower) standard for dispensing from the obligation to attend Mass–compared to the other Holy Days, excepting Christmas.

Thanks again for your response Father. My Christmas example was more of the importance of the day rather than the date, as the USCCB has placed on the IC. I really think it is a shame that decisions are made because people might be confused or it be considered too complicated. Are we really falling on our expectations because people might not understand? That is really sad. Yes, announcements are not really heard, but during the Closing Rite, for those who have not left after communion (!), the priest could remind people of things like this or even use a moment of two in a homily to catechize the people.

 

[rondirect]

May be the solution is to move all of these feasts to Sundays in Ordinary Time. That way we’ll all now when to show up.

Quite honestly, in the workplace I have co-workers who can’t remember when the monthly meeting is held and where – and their paycheck depends on it!

I am looking forward to the upcoming season of feasts on CAF. Any church secretary will tell you her favorite call is “What time is Midnight Mass?”

That would never happen. If it did, many a pastor would be disturbed of the loss of an extra weekly collection! LOL! Dennis, my whole thing is here is that I believe that we need to catechize the people of our faith and not succumb to what we think they might not understand or be confused about. I’ve been it this too long…I understand it and many do not. Still today, many a Catholic do not know the real meaning of the IC. This might cause some discussion or disdain here, but I really feel that the IC should not be a holy day of obligation, but March 25, The Annunciation, should be. How many Catholics and those outside the Catholic church really believe that Mary carried Jesus in her womb for a few weeks! And, I’ve heard many a homily that do not clarify the real meaning of the IC. It frustrates me. Ok, I’m stepping down from the soap box for now!

Oh, and Christmas Eve: talk about confusion without priestly explanation! The term is “Mass in the Night.” “Midnight Mass” for many churches has been eliminated. So, really, when people say, “what time is midnight mass,” they really don’t know for two reasons: one, they know some churches have eliminated mass at midnight and two, they do not know the correct name of the “mass in the night.” And, for the most part, we do not correct or teach them.

 

[Vico]

That would never happen. If it did, many a pastor would be disturbed of the loss of an extra weekly collection! LOL! Dennis, my whole thing is here is that I believe that we need to catechize the people of our faith and not succumb to what we think they might not understand or be confused about. I’ve been it this too long…I understand it and many do not. Still today, many a Catholic do not know the real meaning of the IC. This might cause some discussion or disdain here, but I really feel that the IC should not be a holy day of obligation, but March 25, The Annunciation, should be. How many Catholics and those outside the Catholic church really believe that Mary carried Jesus in her womb for a few weeks! And, I’ve heard many a homily that do not clarify the real meaning of the IC. It frustrates me. Ok, I’m stepping down from the soap box for now!

Oh, and Christmas Eve: talk about confusion without priestly explanation! The term is “Mass in the Night.” “Midnight Mass” for many churches has been eliminated. So, really, when people say, “what time is midnight mass,” they really don’t know for two reasons: one, they know some churches have eliminated mass at midnight and two, they do not know the correct name of the “mass in the night.” And, for the most part, we do not correct or teach them.

USCCB Calendar has these terms:* **25 Fri THE NATIVITY OF THE *LORD (Christmas) white

• Solemnity [Holyday of Obligation]*

Vigil: Is 62:1 - 5/Acts 13:16 - 17, 22 - 25/Mt 1:1 - 25 or 1:18 - 25 (13)
N****ight: Is 9:1 - 6/Ti 2:11 - 14/Lk 2:1 - 14 (14)
Dawn: Is 62:11 - 12/Ti 3:4 - 7/Lk 2:15 - 20 (15)
Day: Is 52:7 - 10/Heb 1:1 - 6/Jn 1:1 - 18 or 1:1 - 5, 9 - 14 (16) Pss Prop

 

[CatholicZ09]

I am looking forward to the upcoming season of feasts on CAF. Any church secretary will tell you her favorite call is “What time is Midnight Mass?”

This was indeed a joke back in the day, but now it’s not such an absurd question to ask. Many parishes have their “Midnight Mass” at 10 p.m. My parish is having it at 11 p.m. this year.

 

[rondirect]

This was indeed a joke back in the day, but now it’s not such an absurd question to ask. Many parishes have their “Midnight Mass” at 10 p.m. My parish is having it at 11 p.m. this year.

Here, to me, is a prime example for our priests to catechize the people. The question that people should ask is, “what time is the ‘mass during the night’ on Christmas Eve”? It could be anytime in the night: 10:00pm, 11:00pm or even at midnight. The church has lost many people to midnight with so many cries to have more vigil masses starting even in the late afternoon hours. In the day, a church might have one vigil mass and people then filled the pews at midnight to meet their obligation to leave Christmas Day open for family. That has all changed and even the missals have omitted the title of “Midnight Mass” to “Mass During the Night.” So many churches are starting to not have a mass at midnight any longer. But, without the explanation to the people, they will still continue to ask, “when is midnight mass?” Your church (and mine) is not really having a “midnight mass” at 11:00pm, but a “Mass during the night” at 11:00pm. It’s one of those things that people will continue to laugh about and be misinformed for always, unless we correct them. I ask the office staff to answer this question with, “we do not have a midnight mass, but a mass during the night at 10:30pm.” As a side bar, I love it too when people call the Sanctuary the altar!

 

[CatholicZ09]

Here, to me, is a prime example for our priests to catechize the people. The question that people should ask is, “what time is the ‘mass during the night’ on Christmas Eve”? It could be anytime in the night: 10:00pm, 11:00pm or even at midnight. The church has lost many people to midnight with so many cries to have more vigil masses starting even in the late afternoon hours. In the day, a church might have one vigil mass and people then filled the pews at midnight to meet their obligation to leave Christmas Day open for family. That has all changed and even the missals have omitted the title of “Midnight Mass” to “Mass During the Night.” So many churches are starting to not have a mass at midnight any longer. But, without the explanation to the people, they will still continue to ask, “when is midnight mass?” Your church (and mine) is not really having a “midnight mass” at 11:00pm, but a “Mass during the night” at 11:00pm. It’s one of those things that people will continue to laugh about and be misinformed for always, unless we correct them. I ask the office staff to answer this question with, “we do not have a midnight mass, but a mass during the night at 10:30pm.” As a side bar, I love it too when people call the Sanctuary the altar!

I have to agree. Midnight Mass has become the all-too common term used for describing the Mass during the Night. I’m glad to see that many publications have started to use “Mass during the Night” instead of “Midnight Mass.” I never even knew it was “Mass during the Night” until the Roman Missal was revised in 2011. Every year, OCP missals erroneously wrote, “Midnight Mass,” and of course, that error furthered the use of the term.

The last part of your comment makes me laugh, too. I always have to watch myself when I am talking about the sanctuary and the altar. I always used to use “altar” and “sanctuary” interchangeably.

 

[pnewton]

I’m more confused now than when I started reading this thread. I just do what I am told.

 

[coachdennis]

Here, to me, is a prime example for our priests to catechize the people. The question that people should ask is, “what time is the ‘mass during the night’ on Christmas Eve”? It could be anytime in the night: 10:00pm, 11:00pm or even at midnight. The church has lost many people to midnight with so many cries to have more vigil masses starting even in the late afternoon hours. In the day, a church might have one vigil mass and people then filled the pews at midnight to meet their obligation to leave Christmas Day open for family. That has all changed and even the missals have omitted the title of “Midnight Mass” to “Mass During the Night.” So many churches are starting to not have a mass at midnight any longer. But, without the explanation to the people, they will still continue to ask, “when is midnight mass?” Your church (and mine) is not really having a “midnight mass” at 11:00pm, but a “Mass during the night” at 11:00pm. It’s one of those things that people will continue to laugh about and be misinformed for always, unless we correct them. I ask the office staff to answer this question with, “we do not have a midnight mass, but a mass during the night at 10:30pm.” As a side bar, I love it too when people call the Sanctuary the altar!

It is more basic than this. You can have a priest or parish do EVERYTHING you suggest and there will be people who do not pay attention, period.

Also, remember that most of the calls to a parish office are from people who probably do not attend regularly so they would not have heard the catechesis. And if you’re calling for a time, they all they want to hear what time Mass is, not what it is called. If I call to find out what time the movie starts, I really don’t give a hoot whether you call it a movie, a film, a cinema masterpiece, or visual expression.

I am a college professor. I have dates on my syllabus, my course website, I announce deadlines in class, we send email reminders but there will always be a segment of students who are “surprised” by a test, paper due, etc. That’s life.

I worked in business for over two decades and despite memos, announcements, and one on one conversation there were always people who asked when and where the meeting is. That’s life.

It is obvious this bothers you, but all you’re doing is giving yourself a headache. Face it, the Catholic Church could pick up each one of these people in a car and drive them to church and they would still manage to get it wrong!

Bless their heart, they did not get the common sense gene

 

[Chatter163]

I agree with everything that Coach Dennis says above. Moreover, the term Midnight Mass was in use in the English language long before OCP or any other missalette publisher ever printed it. All those companies did was use the term that was used by most English-speaking Catholics for centuries, since the first Mass of Christmas was celebrated at midnight. Yes, the Missale Romanum has always called it Missam in Nocte, but most lay Catholics did not know that, and the term Midnight Mass was used in everyday speech, so that is what the missalette companies used, just as they used Holy Thursday, Easter Sunday, Corpus Christi, etc. These are the names that were most familiar to Catholics.

Yes, the 2011 translation of the missal (thankfully) focuses on more accurately translating the names of feast days, as well–hence, the Solemnity of the Mary, the Holy Mother of God; the Nativity of the BVM and St. John the Baptist–though not Ordinary Time, which is still a banal and somewhat misleading rendering of Tempus per Annum. So the use of the term Mass During the Night continues that recent translation trend. The trend of parishes in some parts of the country (and hardly at all in others) of celebrating the Mass during the night at an earlier time is a somewhat separate phenomenon that has been growing for the last two or more decades, and is not really related to what the missal itself or the missalette companies prints as the name of the Mass.

 

[rondirect]

I have to agree. Midnight Mass has become the all-too common term used for describing the Mass during the Night. I’m glad to see that many publications have started to use “Mass during the Night” instead of “Midnight Mass.” I never even knew it was “Mass during the Night” until the Roman Missal was revised in 2011. Every year, OCP missals erroneously wrote, “Midnight Mass,” and of course, that error furthered the use of the term.

The last part of your comment makes me laugh, too. I always have to watch myself when I am talking about the sanctuary and the altar. I always used to use “altar” and “sanctuary” interchangeably.

Funny thing: I never really knew that it was “Mass during the Night” either. I rarely look at the lectionary, but rely on the missal, ordo (for which I don’t remember want term they used), and planning guides until the revision in 2011! And yes, I make the altar and sanctuary mistake myself from time to time, but am very much aware these days. I love it when someone on staff tells someone else to place an item on the altar, at which time I state, “no, that item does not belong ON the altar. Place it in the sanctuary.” Yeah, they think me crazy, but we laugh and perhaps a lesson was learned.