All Saints this Sunday instead of Sunday?

[Justin1224]

Is it permissable for All Saints to be celebrated at this weekends masses in place of the 31st Sunday of Ordinary Time? I just found out that is what our pastor is intending to do after receiving a list from our choir director about the hymns she plans for us to sing this Sunday at mass.

 

[Mark1970]

I think it depends on where you life - some bishops’ conferences have obtained permission to transfer Holydays of Obligation.
I live in the UK, and for many years, if a Holyday fell on the Saturday or Monday, the feast and its obligatin were transferred to the Sunday. Also a few years ago, the English and Welsh bishops obtained permission to transfer some Holydays (Ascension, Corpus Christi, Epiphany) to the nearest Sunday even if they fell mid-week. The Assumption, All Saints, Saints Peter and Paul, and Christmas were left alone.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

I’m not sure that All Saint’s is one of the days that can be transferred. (In the US it is not).

What I do know is that this decision is up to bishops. So is your whole diocese doing it? If not, maybe you should ask your pastor (politely) about. If that doesn’t satisfy, you may want to ask your bishop about it.

IMHO, which no one asked for, the idea is terribly silly and infantilizing. Reducing the obligations – has it really helped? Relaxing rules of fasting/abstinence – to what end?

Bring it all back, and quickly, please.

 

[ZDHayden]

I’m not sure that All Saint’s is one of the days that can be transferred. (In the US it is not).

What I do know is that this decision is up to bishops. So is your whole diocese doing it? If not, maybe you should ask your pastor (politely) about. If that doesn’t satisfy, you may want to ask your bishop about it.

IMHO, which no one asked for, the idea is terribly silly and infantilizing. Reducing the obligations – has it really helped? Relaxing rules of fasting/abstinence – to what end?

Bring it all back, and quickly, please.

I appreciate only one relaxed rule: the fasting rule prior Mass. I have to take medication for my asthma, which needs food be in my stomach prior taking the medication. I do try to make a 2-3 hour fast from food and at least a 1 hour to half-hour fast from entertainment sources (Books, video games, tv, phone, etc). This is before arriving at church, which I do so a half hour to forty five minutes prior Mass.

Anyway, I was under the impression that such a transference could only be given if the day was immediately prior or after the normal Sunday obligation. Of course, my parish priest said that our parish had been given permission from the bishop to do this to celebrate communally our patron saint.

 

[LemonAndLime]

This Sunday instead of this week on Sunday? I’m confused. Surely this sunday is the same as this week on sunday.

We’re celebrating All Saints on the 31st of October. I thought it was very fitting to do so because All Saints as a celebration was deliberately timed at the same time as the pagans own celebration of the dead. The same reason why Christmas is also near a pagan celebration.

Although I’ve been told by many that those are purely coincidental, but ah well.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I appreciate only one relaxed rule: the fasting rule prior Mass. I have to take medication for my asthma, which needs food be in my stomach prior taking the medication. I do try to make a 2-3 hour fast from food and at least a 1 hour to half-hour fast from entertainment sources (Books, video games, tv, phone, etc). This is before arriving at church, which I do so a half hour to forty five minutes prior Mass.

Anyway, I was under the impression that such a transference could only be given if the day was immediately prior or after the normal Sunday obligation. Of course, my parish priest said that our parish had been given permission from the bishop to do this to celebrate communally our patron saint.

Being ill or having to take meds relieves you of the one-hour rule.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I appreciate only one relaxed rule: the fasting rule prior Mass. I have to take medication for my asthma, which needs food be in my stomach prior taking the medication. I do try to make a 2-3 hour fast from food and at least a 1 hour to half-hour fast from entertainment sources (Books, video games, tv, phone, etc). This is before arriving at church, which I do so a half hour to forty five minutes prior Mass.

Anyway, I was under the impression that such a transference could only be given if the day was immediately prior or after the normal Sunday obligation. Of course, my parish priest said that our parish had been given permission from the bishop to do this to celebrate communally our patron saint.

In the US the rules for Holy Days of Obligation include: “If the date is on Saturday or Monday, there is no obligation for that year.”

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Is it permissable for All Saints to be celebrated at this weekends masses in place of the 31st Sunday of Ordinary Time? I just found out that is what our pastor is intending to do after receiving a list from our choir director about the hymns she plans for us to sing this Sunday at mass.

As Mark1970 said in Post #2, it depends where you live. In England and Wales if a holyday of obligation falls on a Saturday or Monday it’s transferred to the Sunday. So this year, in England and Wales, All Saints’ Day will be on Sunday 31st October 2010; Monday 1st November will be a feria.

 

[corsair]

My OF parish is celebrating All Saints this coming Sunday but my EF parish is celebrating Christ the King. In the traditional calender this is the correct Feast. In the new calender Christ the King is not until November 21. Sometimes it can get to be a bit confusing for those of us who switch around, depending on how much gas money we have on any given weekend.

 

[revert_jen]

In the US the rules for Holy Days of Obligation include: “If the date is on Saturday or Monday, there is no obligation for that year.”

Just to be clear, this rule only applies to Mary, Mother of God (January 1), Assumption of the BVM (August 15), and All Saints (November 1). So it is correct in this instance, but not for Christmas, for example.

–Jen

 

[laszlo]

Bring it all back, and quickly, please.

Do you intend to fast tomorrow? (10-27). The Vigil days of the Apostles traditionally were fast days.

 

[revert_jen]

As Mark1970 said in Post #2, it depends where you live. In England and Wales if a holyday of obligation falls on a Saturday or Monday it’s transferred to the Sunday. So this year, in England and Wales, All Saints’ Day will be on Sunday 31st October 2010; Monday 1st November will be a feria.

As far as I can tell from going through the USCCB website, this is not the case in the US. I think the only holy day that can be transferred (if the bishop requests it) is the Ascension. That required an indult, so I think in the US for other holy days, it is not permissible even for the bishop to move it.

I am NOT 100% sure about it. However, it seems pretty likely. For example, in the USCCB 2010 Liturgical Calendar, it has a special note about the Ascension, and another note indicating that the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe may be transferred off the Sunday it naturally falls on (since the normal readings for Sunday must take precedence over a Feast on Sunday), but nothing is said about transferrring All Saints’.

–Jen

 

[Matthew_Holford]

As far as I can tell from going through the USCCB website, this is not the case in the US. I think the only holy day that can be transferred (if the bishop requests it) is the Ascension. That required an indult, so I think in the US for other holy days, it is not permissible even for the bishop to move it.

I am NOT 100% sure about it. However, it seems pretty likely. For example, in the USCCB 2010 Liturgical Calendar, it has a special note about the Ascension, and another note indicating that the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe may be transferred off the Sunday it naturally falls on (since the normal readings for Sunday must take precedence over a Feast on Sunday), but nothing is said about transferrring All Saints’.

–Jen

I think the rule in the USA is that if a holyday of obligation falls on a Monday (as All Saints does this year) the solemnity loses its precept and is not observed as a holyday of obligation. So, in USA All Saints will be celebrated on 1st November but it won’t be a holyday of obligation.

As I said in my previous post I was only citing what happened in England and Wales. I don’t know what the rule is in Scotland. In Ireland, All Saints will on 1st November and will be a holyday of obligation. All Saints isn’t a holyday of obligation at all in Australia. Canada are having All Saints on 1st November but I don’t know if it’s a holyday of obligation. In New Zealand it’s on 1st November and appears not to be a holyday of obligation.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

Do you intend to fast tomorrow? (10-27). The Vigil days of the Apostles traditionally were fast days.

No, actually I wasn’t intending to fast … today in the 1962 calendar it is a feria, and I wasn’t even aware that Vigils of Apostles were fast days. But you have given me something to research.

I do not wish to insist that laypeople must follow some old fast rules they dig out of books … I just want to make it known that some of us do not want things to be as easy as possible, and that slightly stricter rules of fasting and abstinence (and Holy Days of Obligation, for example) can be really spiritually beneficial for the community.

I am trying, imperfectly, to fast/abstain as traditional (at least as according to 1962 calendar / previous CIC) but I’m not opposed to modifying fasting rules a bit as they they get complicated and then need simplifications

(But what has happened in the last few decades seems overboard. The unintended consequence is that many, many Catholics no longer fast even on the few required days, the clear message being, “fasting is note that crucial, we are downgrading it.”)

Same with Holy Days … we make it too easy. Where I work there is a large Jewish community, and many take off for certain holidays. We are very happy to cover for them on those days, and there is no fuss or misunderstanding. I really respect this aspect of their religious practice! We as Catholics should also stand up and let our employers/etc know we will observe the Holy Days of the Church, and others can cover for us. In Catholic countries, non-essential businesses should choose not to open on those days.

anyway, sorry for the rant

 

[revert_jen]

I think the rule in the USA is that if a holyday of obligation falls on a Monday (as All Saints does this year) the solemnity loses its precept and is not observed as a holyday of obligation. So, in USA All Saints will be celebrated on 1st November but it won’t be a holyday of obligation.

Yes, I think that is right, granted that the whole Saturday/Monday thing only applies to the three holy days that I mentioned above. (Which is to say that Immaculate Conception and Christmas are days of obligation regardless of what day they are.)

As I said in my previous post I was only citing what happened in England and Wales. I don’t know what the rule is in Scotland. In Ireland, All Saints will on 1st November and will be a holyday of obligation. All Saints isn’t a holyday of obligation at all in Australia. Canada are having All Saints on 1st November but I don’t know if it’s a holyday of obligation. In New Zealand it’s on 1st November and appears not to be a holyday of obligation.

Interestingly enough, Hawaii is like Australia in that it isn’t a holy day of obligation at all there. According to the USCCB calendar, Hawaii conforms to the holy days of the Conference of Bishops of the South Pacific rather than that of the US. I looked it up, and apparently Canada only ever has two holy days of obligation, Christmas and Mary, Mother of God (Jan 1).

Me, I am fine if the bishops want to remove the obligation in some cases. I can attend Mass even if not required to do so. I do wish Ascenstion Thursday could be celebrated on Thursday, though. I love my bishop, and am happy to do what he says, but there’s always something you wish were different.

But to return briefly to the OP’s question, I have not seen anything anywhere (and I’ve been poking around a fair bit) that indicates it would be allowed to celebrate All Saints this Sunday instead of the 31st Sunday in Ordinary Time in the US. You would celebrate it instead of the regular Sunday if it actually fell on the Sunday, but transferring apparently requires an indult and I can’t see that one has even been requested, although I am certainly fallible. FYI, the USCCB liturgical calendar is at:

usccb.org/liturgy/current/2010cal.pdf

–Jen

 

[zab]

My OF parish is celebrating All Saints this coming Sunday but my EF parish is celebrating Christ the King. In the traditional calender this is the correct Feast. In the new calender Christ the King is not until November 21. Sometimes it can get to be a bit confusing for those of us who switch around, depending on how much gas money we have on any given weekend.

I live in the Seattle diocese, too. Our parish calendar has listed Monday, November 1, All Saints Day. This past Sunday, our pastor informed us that it would not be a day of obligation because it falls on Monday and he sacastically added, “…because God forbid that any of us be obligated to go to Mass two days in a row. But you can still go to Mass on All Saints Day, Monday.”

 

[Matthew_Holford]

But to return briefly to the OP’s question, I have not seen anything anywhere (and I’ve been poking around a fair bit) that indicates it would be allowed to celebrate All Saints this Sunday instead of the 31st Sunday in Ordinary Time in the US. You would celebrate it instead of the regular Sunday if it actually fell on the Sunday, but transferring apparently requires an indult and I can’t see that one has even been requested, although I am certainly fallible.

Obviously, I can’t say for certain but I wonder if the priest, in question, is relying on the following from the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and Calendar*: “For the pastoral advantage of the faithful, it is permissible to observe on the Sundays in Ordinary Time those celebrations that fall during the week and have special appeal to the devotion of the faithful, provided the celebrations take precedence over these Sundays in the Table of Liturgical Days. The Mass for such celebrations may be used at all Masses at which the people are present.” I cannot recall where I read it but I think it’s something to do with allowing solemnities falling on a weekday in Ordinary Time to be transferred to the Sunday so that they can be celebrated with ‘external solemnity’.

*GNLY #58, p. 14

 

[LilyM]

In Australia it’s not a Holy Day of Obligation, therefore Sunday is 31st of Ordinary time as per the calendar, and All Saints is on Monday.

Here several feasts are routinely transferred to the next Sunday - Ascension and Corpus Christi being two that immediately come to mind.

 

[revert_jen]

Obviously, I can’t say for certain but I wonder if the priest, in question, is relying on the following from the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and Calendar*: “For the pastoral advantage of the faithful, it is permissible to observe on the Sundays in Ordinary Time those celebrations that fall during the week and have special appeal to the devotion of the faithful, provided the celebrations take precedence over these Sundays in the Table of Liturgical Days. The Mass for such celebrations may be used at all Masses at which the people are present.” I cannot recall where I read it but I think it’s something to do with allowing solemnities falling on a weekday in Ordinary Time to be transferred to the Sunday so that they can be celebrated with ‘external solemnity’.

*GNLY #58, p. 14

It is possible. It looks to me like these are norms for drawing up the liturgical calendar which could not be done by an individual priest but would require a bishop or conference of bishops, and also approval by Rome: “Particular calendars, drawn up by the competent authority, must be approved by the Apostolic See.” (#49) But certainly I might be wrong. I still wonder why the decree about the Ascension reads this way:

On November 16, 1998, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, in accord with the provisions of canon 1246 §2, approved a procedure whereby the bishops of each ecclesiastical province would determine whether the Solemnity of the Ascension of the Lord would be transferred to the Seventh Sunday of Easter in their ecclesiastical province. The decision was submitted to the Congregation for Bishops for confirmation. Having received a decree from His Eminence, Lucas Cardinal Moreira Neves, O.P., Prefect of that same Congregation, as approved by Pope John Paul II, allowing that “the Ecclesiastical Provinces of the United States may transfer the Solemnity of the Ascension of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter,” Bishop Joseph Fiorenza, President of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, has issued the following decree.
…]
In accord with the provision of canon 1246§2 of the Code of Canon Law, which states: “… the conference of bishops can abolish certain holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday with prior approval of the Apostolic See,” the National Conference of Catholic Bishops of the United States decrees that the Ecclesiastical Provinces of the United States may transfer the Solemnity of the Ascension…]

Link: usccb.org/liturgy/innews/799.shtml

This seems odd, if an individual priest or even a bishop can move a holy day to Sunday. Or maybe it’s because it’s not a day of obligation (because of being on a Monday) that it can be moved without decrees from the conference of bishops? Maybe it’s the removal of the obligation that can’t be done unless the conference of bishops makes a request to Rome, but since the USCCB has already removed the obligation because it falls on Monday, you can move the celebration to Sunday? I’m just guessing.

It’s nice to have a priest you can trust to find out for sure before doing it. If our pastor scheduled All Saints Day as the liturgy this Sunday (he hasn’t), I’d be sure that he checked it out. Of course the reverse isn’t true–the fact that he didn’t do it doesn’t mean that it is not allowed, just that you’re allowed not to do it.

Maybe it comes down to whether the OP has reason to trust that the pastor would be careful about it. However, if the OP (I don’t think I’ve seen anything from him since the original post, maybe he has a life?) doesn’t know for sure, and the priest isn’t doing anything wrong on purpose, I think the benefit of the doubt could be given. Maybe in the lull between Christmas and Lent, the OP could respectfully ask the priest about it–in any case, I doubt anything would change it now for this time. OTOH, the same question could come up for January 1st, since it is on Saturday this year.

Anyway, the research was interesting.

–Jen

 

[Matthew_Holford]

It is possible. It looks to me like these are norms for drawing up the liturgical calendar which could not be done by an individual priest but would require a bishop or conference of bishops, and also approval by Rome: “Particular calendars, drawn up by the competent authority, must be approved by the Apostolic See.” (#49) But certainly I might be wrong. I still wonder why the decree about the Ascension reads this way:

Link: usccb.org/liturgy/innews/799.shtml

This seems odd, if an individual priest or even a bishop can move a holy day to Sunday. Or maybe it’s because it’s not a day of obligation (because of being on a Monday) that it can be moved without decrees from the conference of bishops? Maybe it’s the removal of the obligation that can’t be done unless the conference of bishops makes a request to Rome, but since the USCCB has already removed the obligation because it falls on Monday, you can move the celebration to Sunday? I’m just guessing.

It’s nice to have a priest you can trust to find out for sure before doing it. If our pastor scheduled All Saints Day as the liturgy this Sunday (he hasn’t), I’d be sure that he checked it out. Of course the reverse isn’t true–the fact that he didn’t do it doesn’t mean that it is not allowed, just that you’re allowed not to do it.

Maybe it comes down to whether the OP has reason to trust that the pastor would be careful about it. However, if the OP (I don’t think I’ve seen anything from him since the original post, maybe he has a life?) doesn’t know for sure, and the priest isn’t doing anything wrong on purpose, I think the benefit of the doubt could be given. Maybe in the lull between Christmas and Lent, the OP could respectfully ask the priest about it–in any case, I doubt anything would change it now for this time. OTOH, the same question could come up for January 1st, since it is on Saturday this year.

Anyway, the research was interesting.

–Jen

I agree with what you say about my quote from the GNLY, it’s probably not for an individual priest to decide. I wish I could remember where I read about transferring a solemnity to a Sunday (but only in Ordinary Time). If my memory serves me well (not always guaranteed these days) that was down to individual parishes/priests to make that decision.