All sin is the same

[DeusLeVolt]

Here is a new one. In discussing theology with my once-saved always-saved roomate, he recently in a passing conversation mentioned that “all sin is the same in God’s eyes.” Now I understand that our Catechism has a plethora of pages devoted to sin and the different types (mortal, venial) but of course the Catechism is not valid with him.

I was wondering if there are any scriptural verses or other ways to teach to him the truth of different types of sin. I was so surprised when he said that because not only is it false but it is illogical. In his defense, he has been raised this way and has never had a lick of Catholic teaching in his life, and thus I have sort of made this my mission. Any prayers would be appreciated.

 

[AugustineFL]

This seems to show that there is more than one type of sin. Here it is in a Catholic translation and two protestant translations (they all read about the same)

1John 5:16&17

DRV:
He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin And there is a sin unto death.

KJV:
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death

Geneva:
If any man see his brother sinne a sinne that is not vnto death, let him aske, and he shall giue him life for them that sinne not vnto death. There is a sinne vnto death: I say not that thou shouldest pray for it. All vnrighteousnesse is sinne, but there is a sinne not vnto death.

 

[Lazerlike42]

The most important thing to remember when discussing mortal and venial sin is that we must avoid the misunderstanding that mortal sins are simply “worse” sins then venial sins. It is true that some sins are graver than others, but tis is not what makes a sin mortal. There is an extremely common misunderstanding among Protestants (and many Catholics ) that Catholic theology says that minor things like stealing a quarter aren’t worthy of hell in God’s eyes, whereas major sins like murder are. This is not true.

What is true is that all sins are worthy of hell in and of themselves. However, when Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is applied to us, these sins are forgiven, and we will not be condemned to hell for them. Protestants believe this as well. The difference is that Protestants say that this is all there is to the idea of sin and forgiveness. Catholics recognize that there is more.

You see, our everyday sins are all forgiven by the simple fact that we have Christ’s sacrifice applied to us. Catholics say that this happens through baptism, whereas Protestants (tend to) say that it happens through accepting Christ. This is another arguement. The point is that so long as Christ is in our lives, however He gets there, His sacrifice earns us the forgiveness of all of our sins.

However, this is when we are accepting His forgiveness. We can reject it. If we know that something is sinful and completely against the will of God, but we do it anyways, then that sin becomes more than it otherwise would be; it becomes a rejection of God’s forgiveness. We call this a mortal sin. It is not that the sin is in and of itself different, but it is that our we turn our hearts completely away from God by the sin. The mortality of the sin is not in the sin itself, but is in our hearts. If we know that something is truly against God but do it anyways, we are making an active decision that committing that sin is more important to us than God. So, committing that sin is a rejection of God.

Your OSAS friend may say that the paragraph above is simply a bunch of Catholic nonsense, but he would be mistaken. It is direct from the Bible. Hebrews 10:26-27 tell us the same thing as I wrote above:

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

As you can see, it is in the deliberate nature of the sin, and in that we have knowledge of the truth that causes us to lose the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice. Oddly enough, the Catholic Church teaches that three things are required for a sin to be mortal: grave matter, full knowledge, and full will(deliberateness). The grave matter is not in the passage, but it can be shown from other Biblical passages. However, just being able to show the will and knowledge is something that I think most Protestants will be extremely surprised at.

 

[thistle]

I wouldn’t agree that all sins are worthy of hell.
You do not go to hell over venial sins. Venial sins are not a rejection of God’s love.
You go to hell over mortal sins which you have not confessed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation before death. Mortal sins can have a different gravity. Obviously stealing a few coins is not as grave as murdering someone but theft is still a mortal sin.

THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

CCC 1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

CCC 1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

CCC 1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.

 

[Lazerlike42]

thistle:

I wouldn’t agree that all sins are worthy of hell.
You do not go to hell over venial sins. Venial sins are not a rejection of God’s love.
You go to hell over mortal sins which you have not confessed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation before death. Mortal sins can have a different gravity. Obviously stealing a few coins is not as grave as murdering someone but theft is still a mortal sin.

THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

CCC 1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

CCC 1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

CCC 1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.

A sin can never be mortal by its object. A sin may only be grave (or not grave) according to its object. This is the very same misunderstanding that Protestants accuse Catholic theology of teaching. If it did, they would be correct to critcize.

In discussing mortal/venial sin, the Catechism is necessarily speaking about people who have already become a part of the body of Christ. Remember that if not for the sacrifice of Christ, charity would not even be in our souls to begin with.

 

[thistle]

Lazerlike42:

A sin can never be mortal by its object. A sin may only be grave (or not grave) according to its object. This is the very same misunderstanding that Protestants accuse Catholic theology of teaching. If it did, they would be correct to critcize.

In discussing mortal/venial sin, the Catechism is necessarily speaking about people who have already become a part of the body of Christ. Remember that if not for the sacrifice of Christ, charity would not even be in our souls to begin with.

I don’t understand your point then.
Are you saying that Protestants don’t understand the difference between mortal and venial sins and so for them all sins get you to hell, but that because we Catholics do understand the difference we know that only mortal sins get us to Hell.

 

[Lazerlike42]

thistle:

I don’t understand your point then.
Are you saying that Protestants don’t understand the difference between mortal and venial sins and so for them all sins get you to hell, but that because we Catholics do understand the difference we know that only mortal sins get us to Hell.

Well I wanted to correct what you said that a sin can be mortal “by its very object,” which is incorrect.

As far as all sin being worthy of hell, my point is that aside from the sacrifice of Christ, any sin would be enough for a person to end up in hell. However, once the sacrifice of Christ is applied to a person (which really happens through baptism, even though Protetants often do not believe that it does), all sins are forgiven, regardless of the gravity of the sin. However, if a person is to commit a grave sin knowingly and deliberately, that sin would cause the person to end up in hell not because of its gravity, but because the person was rejecting God’s love and forgiveness through the sin.

In other words, the Protestant misunderstanding of the Catholic view is that a mortal sin is just a very grave sin, and they criticize the view saying that every sin is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. They say that Catholics teach that only really bad people go to Hell, because you have to commit a mortal sin (which they think means a really bad sin) to go to Hell. They think that we teach that Christ’s sacrifice is only necessary if you do something really bad, but if you are just the average fellow who never kills or whatnot that you’ll be fine. They are correct that any sin is an infinite offense against God, so in that respect all are the “same.” (I use quotations because it is certainly true that some sins are graver than others.) The problem is that the Catholic Church doesn’t say that Christ is only needed for the really bad sins or whatnot. What She says is that when a person has Christ (is baptised) that he or she is granted Christ’s mercy and is expected to grow in holiness and to avoid sin, but She acknowledges that we are all subject to concupiscience and are going to falter from time to time, so minor sins are bound to happen and Christ recognizes that. However, She teaches that if a person commits a sin that’s so completely opposed to God, and does so knowingly and deliberately, that it is a rejection of God’s grace and forgiveness, because you’re doing something that’s just so off the mark that you couldn’t do it without rejecting Him.

 

[thistle]

Lazerlike42:

My point is that you said that a sin can be mortal “by its very object,” which is incorrect.

Where did I say that?

 

[Lazerlike42]

thistle:

Where did I say that?

thistle:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object…

post #4, right after the quote from the catechism

By the way I edited my last post to hopefully clarify what I was saying.

 

[thistle]

Lazerlike42:

post #4, right after the quote from the catechism

By the way I edited my last post to hopefully clarify what I was saying.

Oh I see. Thses are not my comments. That is a direct quote from the CCC immediately following CCC 1856. So that’s the Church saying that, not me.

 

[Lazerlike42]

thistle:

Oh I see. Thses are not my comments. That is a direct quote from the CCC immediately following CCC 1856. So that’s the Church saying that, not me.

I see the confusion. I didn’t read it carefully enough. It is a quote from Aquinas in which he is saying that when a person’s will sets him opposed to God, then the sin is mortal by its object. In this case, the object is literally the will being set against God, which is objectively mortal. That basically describes the general reality that is present in any specific mortal sin: the will being set against God.

He isn’t saying that a sin can be objectively mortal, like for instance missing Mass on Sunday is objectively mortal. The actual matter of a sin can’t be objectively mortal, no. However, when the sin is a sin by which the person’s will is set against God, then it is mortal.

He is more or less saying what I am trying to say in a more concise way: it is the component of a sin by which a person’s will is set against God that makes a sin mortal, not the fact that it’s “really bad.”

I just saw the words “mortal by its very nature” and I said wait thats wrong, without looking at the context :nope:

 

[thistle]

Lazerlike42:

I see the confusion. I didn’t read it carefully enough. It is a quote from Aquinas in which he is saying that when a person’s will sets him opposed to God, then the sin is mortal by its object. In this case, the object is literally the will being set against God, which is objectively mortal. That basically describes the general reality that is present in any specific mortal sin: the will being set against God.

He isn’t saying that a sin can be objectively mortal, like for instance missing Mass on Sunday is objectively mortal. The actual matter of a sin can’t be objectively mortal, no. However, when the sin is a sin by which the person’s will is set against God, then it is mortal.

He is more or less saying what I am trying to say in a more concise way: it is the component of a sin by which a person’s will is set against God that makes a sin mortal, not the fact that it’s “really bad.”

I just saw the words “mortal by its very nature” and I said wait thats wrong, without looking at the context :nope:

No problem.