All sinned in Adam and All killed the Son of God

[simpleas]

I think the simple bottom line truth is that lack of communion with God, a state we’re born into (I certainly had no direct knowledge of Him from birth on, let alone love for Him until later in life), spells or equals death for man, which is why it can be said that Adam died on the day he ate of the fruit, and why we lack that life until we come to know and commune with God, and why we can forfeit that life again if we turn away in disobedience afterwards. Man is lost on his own; doesn’t that seem obvious? Man was made for communion with God. Doesn’t it seem obvious that we’re not at that point or state at the beginning of life, even if we might prefer to think we were for some reason?

This is what the thread was centred around :

*All of us, even non Christians, decided we would sin/break the covenant with God at first creation, and then we all crucified the Son of God.

Is this what we really believe? Did we really do this by our own hand?*

It’s not about not needing God etc, it was about our involvement in Adam and Eve’s choice, that because we are descendants of this first couple we must have inherited their way of turning away from God.
And as sinners , we also are responsible for Jesus’ death.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks.

While I accept we inherit the material human nature from the first parents, we don’t inherit his or her soul, we may be a family of humans but we each have a different soul.

But the soul is another topic that I have trouble with so best leave it there.

Human nature is the unique unification of the material world and the spiritual world.

The human person is more than a material human nature inherited from the first parents and a soul that we don’t inherit because we each have a different soul.

What you are correctly describing is the philosophy of two different things (Cartesian dualism) working together in the human person. The correct example you gave is the
separation of material human nature and different souls which does end up with a bunch of difficulties.

When we first learn about the soul and body, we may find ourselves thinking in terms
of dualism. Sometimes the idea of dualism can lead to disgust for the material body which is interested in other material bodies.

The Catholic Church teaches that the “spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, (formal explanation of dualism) but rather their union forms a single nature.” (CCC 365) CCC paragraphs 362-366 are packed with information.

I did have a bit of trouble with dualism when I landed on CAF. A poster politely nailed me. It was not a big deal. Still, I now like thinking that Jesus in the Eucharist entered all of me, whatever. He loved my decomposing anatomy and He loved being within me because my spiritual soul is capable of receiving Him. Being in the State of Sanctifying Grace, I was sharing in God’s life. (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

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The human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

Today’s scientific understanding posits a species called Homo sapiens, supposedly characterized by a certain morphology, physiology and unique capacities. The spectrum of human phenotypes would reflect the subtle differences in the genetic foundation which “codes” for these core traits. Even to those who see us as animals, original sin is not that far-fetched since we are not dinosaurs (at least not in the literal sense). What happens to the progenitor at a genetic level would affect all future offspring.

A religious understanding looks deeper into what it means to be human. The body and the human spirit form the unity of being that is the person. A body allows us to participate in time and space as we are doing here. But, what is also required is our being able to enter into relation with the world and with one another. And of course, it can’t happen at all without God’s bringing it into being right here and now. We are one species of body-spirit self-others, one humanity, joined in love, the giving of ourselves to one another, and separated by selfishness, indifference and hate.

You are not me and I am not you, but we are the same in many ways that include our primary relationality. This capacity to give and connect with what is other, that may be a chasm separating us, allows for the possibility of sharing, communing with those we love and know intimately.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich fool is played over and over in this world. We are built that way ontologically and that nature had a beginning in the first man. This is who we chose to be then, as we choose it every day. But, we can regain the grace that should be ours. Jesus has made it possible. Being Christ-like is the true self towards which we journey, and as children of God, the means by which we are brought into eternal communion within the Trinity, Love itself.

As described in another parable, we are the victims of sin, lying beaten, half alive, and naked, stripped of the glory of grace, abandoned in the ditch. Most definitely not the robbers, but neither the Levite nor the priest, who know the law, would come to their neighbour’s assistance. The Good Samaritan, although presumably is not learned in the ways of God, finds his heart wrenched by the plight of his neighbour. He doesn’t ignore or delight in the misery he witnesses; he doesn’t turn away in revulsion, but is moved to action by his pity. We are the victim and we can be the Samaritan, as is Christ on the cross and as our Divine healer, priest and king, bringing us into loving communion with the Father.

What we do to others, we do to Him. Keeping the commandments of the Father, by God’s grace, we are transformed into love.

 

[grannymh]

This is what the thread was centred around :

All of us, even non Christians, decided we would sin/break the covenant with God at first creation, and then we all crucified the Son of God.

Is this what we really believe? Did we really do this by our own hand?

It’s not about not needing God etc, it was about our involvement in Adam and Eve’s choice, that because we are descendants of this first couple we must have inherited their way of turning away from God.
And as sinners , we also are responsible for Jesus’ death.

What we inherit is Adam’s human nature. I just posted some thoughts about human nature. Post 42.

Our human nature describes the elements that make us real. We are real in time and space because we have a physical anatomy. We are real in the spiritual world because we have a real rational spiritual soul. Our human nature is such that body and soul are uniquely united so that the union itself is our true human nature.

Our human nature tells us what is different between the animals and ourselves. Human nature, Genesis 1: 27 is why Adam could be in a friendship relationship with a Divine Creator, aka State of Original Holiness.

Human nature includes the ability or capability of intellective free choice. Our rational mind is constantly being used. Human nature includes our very own individual spiritual soul. Human nature means that God loves us an important unique individual person. “unique individual person” is what I am and you are.

Adam is a person with a human nature. We are persons with a human nature. When we are conceived, we do not receive the personhood mother or personhood father. We receive their human nature.

Our involvement with Adam’s choice is possible because we have the same human nature. We are not the same person nor do we receive the personhood of Adam. We receive Adam’s human nature at conception which includes the Catholic Church teaching that the necessary spiritual soul is immediately created by God.

Do we receive our parents’ sins? There were ancient times when people believed that. Fortunately, that kind of thinking has been dismissed. Sins belong to the person. It is human nature which give the person the choice of committing or rejecting sin.

Adam was created as a person with human nature. Adam scorned his Creator and thus he committed the Original Sin. Adam’s extremely serious disobedience changed his human nature which was in the State of Friendship with his Creator aka State of Original Holiness to a State of Deprivation of Original Holiness. This is also known as the contracted State of Original Sin. Basically, Eve and Adam’s human nature was affected. Their affected human nature was transmitted as normal propagation.

The internet is full of questions – Why didn’t God do this or that? That mean old God! A human father would do better.

Maybe the unity of a single human nature was necessary for all persons to eventually experience the eternal joy of the Beatific Vision.

Obviously the idea that “All sinned in Adam” (thread topic) is in human minds.
Maybe the better idea is that all can participate in God’s life because of Adam human nature.