All Souls Day 2019 is on a Saturday - how do we handle Saturday night?

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phil19034

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Hello All,

I know this is a while off, but we are starting to plan something special for All Souls Day 2019 because it is on a Saturday.

Question about the Liturgy of the evening Mass.

Would a priest be allowed to celebrate the All Souls Liturgy at a 5:30 PM Mass instead of the Sunday, Nov 3rd liturgy?

And after mass, we will be celebrating Night Prayer. Can we celebrate Night Prayer from the Office of the Dead?
 
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Not sure,our priest would be able to tell you though.Bumping you up 🙂
 
In the US, you can always look at the USCCB Liturgical Calendar for the year:


2 Sat The Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed white or violet or black
(All Souls’ Day)
Wis 3:1-9/Rom 5:5-11 or Rom 6:3-9/Jn 6:37-40 (668) or any readings from no. 668
or from the Lectionary for Mass (vol. IV), the Masses for the Dead, nos. 1011-1016
Pss Prop

Then there is this to help when Nov 1 is on a Sat or Monday: BOLD mine

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te.../canon-law/complementary-norms/canon-1246.cfm

Whenever January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, or August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption, or November 1, the solemnity of All Saints, falls on a Saturday or on a Monday, the precept to attend Mass is abrogated.
 
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TheLittleLady said:
In the US, you can always look at the USCCB Liturgical Calendar for the year:

http://www.usccb.org/about/divine-worship/liturgical-calendar/upload/2019cal.pdf

2 Sat The Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed white or violet or black
(All Souls’ Day)
Wis 3:1-9/Rom 5:5-11 or Rom 6:3-9/Jn 6:37-40 (668) or any readings from no. 668
or from the Lectionary for Mass (vol. IV), the Masses for the Dead, nos. 1011-1016
Pss Prop

Then there is this to help when Nov 1 is on a Sat or Monday: BOLD mine

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te.../canon-law/complementary-norms/canon-1246.cfm

Whenever January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, or August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption, or November 1, the solemnity of All Saints, falls on a Saturday or on a Monday, the precept to attend Mass is abrogated.
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This doesn’t answer my question at all. I already looked at this.

Thanks anyway.
 
I’ll start out by saying that my voice is not an authoritative one in these matters. However, since I pray the LOTH I looked at your question by asking myself what I’ll do with the Hours on November 2, 2019. Note that I occasionally make mistakes in choosing which offices to pray, so everything below could be total bunk. 😊 Hopefully @OraLabora or someone else similarly knowledgeable can confirm or refute what I’m about to say.

In case it matters, I use the UK breviary (Collins).
phil19034 said:
Would a priest be allowed to celebrate the All Souls Liturgy at a 5:30 PM Mass instead of the Sunday, Nov 3rd liturgy?
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So the question I asked myself is “Which Vespers do I pray, 2nd Vespers for All Souls or 1st Vespers for the 31st Sunday in Ordinary Time?” The answer is 2nd Vespers for All Souls…because according to the Table of Liturgical Days in my breviary, All Souls (number 3 on the list) trumps the Ordinary Sundays of the year (number 6). This being the case, I would think a priest could celebrate Mass to commemorate All Souls on Saturday evening instead of an anticipatory Mass for Sunday.
phil19034 said:
And after mass, we will be celebrating Night Prayer. Can we celebrate Night Prayer from the Office of the Dead?
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I would think so. Since I’ll be praying 2nd Vespers for All Souls, it is only logical to pray Compline (NP) as instructed for All Souls. Note, however, that according to my breviary there is no specific Night Prayer in the Office of the Dead. It says “All as on a Sunday, After Evening Prayer II”.

Hope this helps, or at least gives you more elements than you previously had 😬
 
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UpUp is correct, you pray Vespers of All-Souls. Note that there is no “second” Vespers of All-Souls, just Vespers. All-Saint’s Day is on the 1st which is the eve of All-Souls, and Vespers for that day is 2nd Vespers of All-Saints, not 1st Vespers of All-Souls. All Saints does have First Vespers, celebrated on Oct. 31st.

Also as she noted, there is no specific Night Prayer for the Office of the Dead, other than using the Sunday Office.
 
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phil19034 said:
Would a priest be allowed to celebrate the All Souls Liturgy at a 5:30 PM Mass instead of the Sunday, Nov 3rd liturgy?
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All Souls’ ranks higher than the Sundays in Ordinary Time in the hierarchy of liturgical days of the Church. So, it would seem to me that the prayers of the Mass on 5:30pm, Saturday, November 2nd must be the prayers of the All Souls’ day Mass. Since attendance at a Mass after the approved time for an anticipated Mass for Sunday fulfills the obligation for “Sunday” Mass attendance, this Mass would correspondingly fulfill the Sunday obligation.
 
Thanks. Just a comment to myself regarding the Vespers explanation: duh :woman_facepalming:t2:

Also, further clarification: I approached @phil19034’s question about the Mass through the LOTH because I doubt the hierarchy of the Table of Liturgical Days is applied differently to the Mass than how it’s applied to the LOTH. That wouldn’t make sense. So (at least in my mind) what is instructed to one would also apply to the other.

Finally, even though this was not the original question IIRC an anticipatory Mass for Sunday could be celebrated on All Souls as well. I believe this happened in my parish in 2013—the All Souls Mass was celebrated in one church and the anticipatory Mass for Sunday was celebrated in another (but I’ll have to go back through my records to confirm, and I’m not doing that now, at 2:30am 😪).
 
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OK, so we have a consensus regarding the LOTH.

Just need to figure out what the correct thing is for the Mass.

However, I did read on a diocese website (not my diocese, but one here in the US) that when All Saints Day is on Saturday, the Saturday evening mass should be the All Souls Day mass. That shocked me.

https://catholicdos.org/events/solemnity-of-all-saints
 
phil19034 said:
Just need to figure out what the correct thing is for the Mass.
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Well, the only other comment I can make is that my pastor at the time celebrated the All Souls Mass on Saturday evening in 2013, the last time All Souls fell on a Saturday. Since he did it, I’m confident it must be allowed.

Also, it would not make sense to have different rules for the LOTH and the Mass.
 
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phil19034 said:
I did read on a diocese website (not my diocese, but one here in the US) that when All Saints Day is on Saturday, the Saturday evening mass should be the All Souls Day mass. That shocked me.
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That’s 'cause All Souls outranks All Saints (even though the latter is a holy day of obligation).
 
Gorgias said:
That’s 'cause All Souls outranks All Saints (even though the latter is a holy day of obligation).
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Ok, I think that makes sense.

The one thing that I will say is that is that it always seems like the US is all over the place (in regards to Mass) when a high ranking solemnity/feast is on a Saturday
 
OraLabora said:
UpUp is correct, you pray Vespers of All-Souls. Note that there is no “second” Vespers of All-Souls, just Vespers. All-Saint’s Day is on the 1st which is the eve of All-Souls, and Vespers for that day is 2nd Vespers of All-Saints, not 1st Vespers of All-Souls. All Saints does have First Vespers, celebrated on Oct. 31st.

Also as she noted, there is no specific Night Prayer for the Office of the Dead, other than using the Sunday Office.
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NOTE: I’m in the United States

I just looked at the St Joseph’s guide for Christian Prayer

They show for Saturday, Nov 2nd we (in the US) should be using Sunday’s EP I instead of All Soul’s Vespers.

They did the same thing for Candlemas this year.

It seems like in the US, most bishops want to always have Sunday trump Sat evening
 
🤔

That being the case, the person who can best answer your question for your particular situation is your priest. I’m in France, Ora is in Canada, and the various American respondents are likely in dioceses other than yours so our answers might confuse the issue as it pertains specifically to your parish.
 
In Canada, the CCCB Ordo says “Office propre” for Nov. 2. It always stipulates when Saturday evening Vespers is 1st Vespers of Sunday, but in this case it doesn’t, so “proper office” applies to the whole calendar day.

But… this is Canada. Only your CB can say!
 
According to the Table of Liturgical Days according to their Order of Precedence All Souls is listed at #3 in Part I and Sundays in Ordinary Time are listed at #6 in Part II of the Table. Therefore, All Souls takes precedence over the Sunday. I would believe that means on 2nd November 2019 Vespers is that of All Souls and any evening Mass ought to be that of All Souls. You can see the table here.
 
I pretty sure that on All Souls Day this year, that any Mass celebrated that evening at the usual time you parish offers Saturday evening Mass, would be for the 31st Sunday in Ordinary Time and not for All Souls Day.
 
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