All Souls Day and Purgatory in the Syriac Tradition

[shlomo3amrooh]

In addition to this, our great Syriac Fathers. St Ephrem and St Aphrahat. Both spoke about the sleep of the soul in death. St Ephrem, continuously compares sleep to death and awakening to the resurrection. He states:

Sweet is sleep to the weary, so is death to him who fasts and watches. Natural sleep slays not the sleepr, nor has Sheol slain, nor does it so now. Sleep is sweet, and so is Sheol quite… Sleep strives not to hold the sleeper, nor is Sheol greedy. Behold, sleep shows us how temporary is Sheol, for the morn awakes the sleeper, and the Voice raises the dead - Carmina Nisib

he also says:

Behold how (the dead) are encompassed in Sheol, and awaiting the great day, till He come to delight them, and bring hope to the hopeless

to read more click below:

qadishat.com/2013/11/all-souls-day-and-purgatory-in-syriac.html

 

[Michael57]

Thanks for the article and the well-wishes on the Feast Day.

 

[MorEphrem]

I think one thing should be clarified though: we have a mini-season of commemoration that spans three weeks and feasts the priests, the righteous & just and departed believers prior to Lent. All Saints is a Latin feast to my understanding. The priest who said liturgy yesterday even used the liturgy for the Sunday of Commemoration for the righteous & just.

 

[malphono]

I think one thing should be clarified though: we have a mini-season of commemoration that spans three weeks and feasts the priests, the righteous & just and departed believers prior to Lent. All Saints is a Latin feast to my understanding. The priest who said liturgy yesterday even used the liturgy for the Sunday of Commemoration for the righteous & just.

Indeed All Saints on November 1st and All Souls on November 2nd are 100% Latin. The equivalent commemorations on the West Syriac calendar are as you say. For some years in the post-conciliar era, the Maronite eparchy in the US did not observe the Latin commemorations. I don’t recall exactly when, but sometime withing the past 15 years the Latin observances were resurrected.

 

[Zekariya]

A Byzantine emperor wanted to build a Church in honor of his devout, deceased wife but was not allowed to do so. Therefore, he had a Church built in honor of all saints so that his wife would be included should she be in heaven.

All Saints Day was originally celebrated on the Sunday following Pentecost by Roman and Byzantine Catholics alike. Rome moved this day to November 1st for the sake of the Celtic people because they already a major pagan festival for the dead on November 1st.

 

[mardukm]

A Byzantine emperor wanted to build a Church in honor of his devout, deceased wife but was not allowed to do so. Therefore, he had a Church built in honor of all saints so that his wife would be included should she be in heaven.

All Saints Day was originally celebrated on the Sunday following Pentecost by Roman and Byzantine Catholics alike. Rome moved this day to November 1st for the sake of the Celtic people because they already a major pagan festival for the dead on November 1st.

Very impressed by your knowledge, brother. So All Saints day is not a Latin thing. It is only the date it is celebrated that differs.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Zekariya]

Very impressed by your knowledge, brother. So All Saints day is not a Latin thing. It is only the date it is celebrated that differs.

Blessings,
Marduk

Before then, the Sunday following Pentecost was All Martyrs Day. The emperor’s wife is St Theophano Martiniake (her feast is December 16).

 

[dzheremi]

Very impressed by your knowledge, brother. So All Saints day is not a Latin thing. It is only the date it is celebrated that differs.

Blessings,
Marduk

Not that I care either way (this commemoration is certainly not a part of OO tradition), but this seems like a hasty conclusion. If you read the history and motivations behind each celebration, it seems like they are completely different commemorations that happen to share the same name in English. The Western celebration, at least for Roman Catholics, ties into their ideas of purgatory and the Beatific Vision, which are both 100% Latin concepts not shared by the East, while the Eastern celebration is an expansion into a general remembrance (from context, it seems like it was originally meant to only honor martyrs before the Byzantine Emperor lost his wife and that bit of subsequent history posted by Zekariya happened).

 

[Zekariya]

Not that I care either way (this commemoration is certainly not a part of OO tradition), but this seems like a hasty conclusion. If you read the history and motivations behind each celebration, it seems like they are completely different commemorations that happen to share the same name in English. The Western celebration, at least for Roman Catholics, ties into their ideas of purgatory and the Beatific Vision, which are both 100% Latin concepts not shared by the East, while the Eastern celebration is an expansion into a general remembrance (from context, it seems like it was originally meant to only honor martyrs before the Byzantine Emperor lost his wife and that bit of subsequent history posted by Zekariya happened).

Just to be clear, I was not suggesting that the Eastern feast and the Western one has not diverged from each other at all. I was only providing the historical reason for the date being changed and the fact that the Byzantines and the Romans once had a shared date.

 

[malphono]

Not that I care either way (this commemoration is certainly not a part of OO tradition)

Actually it is, sort of, at least, insofar as the Sundays of the Righteous and the Just and the Faithful Departed (being the second and third respectively of the 3 Sundays preceding the Entrance to Lent aka Cana Sunday) on the Syriac calendar are part of the Oriental tradition.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, Malphono, but as I understand them (I don’t think we have anything equivalent to this in the COC, though I don’t know for sure) they are more general commemorations along the lines of the Byzantine day, so the point still stands: The Western and Eastern/Oriental days are not the same, just because they have the same name in English. One is specific in the way it is tied in to Western theology that has no non-Western analogue (from the link, it seems that they even have separate commemorations for those who have seen the “Beatific Vision” and those who haven’t), and the other is general, for all the saints of a given church.

It reminds me a bit of my Christmas experience since becoming Orthodox: Since I’m always at home in California with family at this time, I’ll get calls from Copts on “Western Christmas” (Dec. 25) wishing me “Merry Christmas”, and I in turn will call them on January 7th to send my greetings for the blessed Nativity. They’re both “Christmas”, but they’re really not the same thing. (NB: Christmas in my family, as in the West in general, is not a religious holiday, and the Copts who call me know that, since they know that my father joined that anti-Christian cult; they even lament, as I do, that I cannot be around on January 7 to celebrate the birth of Christ with them.)

 

[malphono]

Yes, Malphono, but as I understand them (I don’t think we have anything equivalent to this in the COC, though I don’t know for sure) they are more general commemorations along the lines of the Byzantine day, so the point still stands: The Western and Eastern/Oriental days are not the same, just because they have the same name in English. One is specific in the way it is tied in to Western theology that has no non-Western analogue (from the link, it seems that they even have separate commemorations for those who have seen the “Beatific Vision” and those who haven’t), and the other is general, for all the saints of a given church.

OK, yeah, you’re right. Now I see where you’re going. Must be me suffering from low air pressure today.

 

[Rafkqa]

Indeed All Saints on November 1st and All Souls on November 2nd are 100% Latin. The equivalent commemorations on the West Syriac calendar are as you say. For some years in the post-conciliar era, the Maronite eparchy in the US did not observe the Latin commemorations. I don’t recall exactly when, but sometime withing the past 15 years the Latin observances were resurrected.

Absolutely agree, complete latinisation, even sits awkwardly in the liturgical seasons… Anyway welcome to the new liturgical year to all Maronites…

 

[JRS_88]

Hello to all,

I recently returned to the Maronite Catholic Church after being away from the Catholic faith for about thirty years.

I saw this posted in an old thread from June of this year titled “Maronite Teaching on Purgatory”

• Maronite Tradition repeatedly expresses two ideas about the Faithful Departed. The first is that not all the dead have yet completed their journey to the happiness of the Kingdom. They are “at rest” and “awaiting” the final saving action of the Lord. Second, they need our prayers for the forgiveness of their sins and purification. - from the book “Captivated by Your Teachings” by Fr. Anthony Salim.

I’m hung up on “awaiting the final saving action of the Lord”.
My question is, are we to believe as Roman Catholics do, that our prayers and offering of masses help the souls to leave this state of being “at rest” and be released to Heaven?

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject; I’m trying to make up for years of being away and being poorly catechized.

Thank you all,
Joe

 

[Rafkqa]

Hello to all,

I recently returned to the Maronite Catholic Church after being away from the Catholic faith for about thirty years.

I saw this posted in an old thread from June of this year titled “Maronite Teaching on Purgatory”

• Maronite Tradition repeatedly expresses two ideas about the Faithful Departed. The first is that not all the dead have yet completed their journey to the happiness of the Kingdom. They are “at rest” and “awaiting” the final saving action of the Lord. Second, they need our prayers for the forgiveness of their sins and purification. - from the book “Captivated by Your Teachings” by Fr. Anthony Salim.

I’m hung up on “awaiting the final saving action of the Lord”.
My question is, are we to believe as Roman Catholics do, that our prayers and offering of masses help the souls to leave this state of being “at rest” and be released to Heaven?

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject; I’m trying to make up for years of being away and being poorly catechized.

Thank you all,
Joe

Joe,

It is lovely too see you back and don’t worry many of us as Maronites are poorly catechized, the problem is we do not have many places to look to be better catechized especially if we only speak English. In any case I am pretty certain that our prayers help souls to heaven - I am sure Malphono or MorEphrem will correct me if I am wrong.

More information can be found about the Maronite Funeral Rites in the
“Book of Ginnazat” – Diocese of St Maroun – USA maroniten.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/maronite-funeral-rites.pdf

And in a very interesting dissertation written by Nadim Abou Zeid uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/862/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1 (not sure I agree with every part of it - but great starting point).

In essence, for Maronites, death is the end of our earthly life and the beginning of a journey to our heavenly home. In the Maronite Church, the funeral liturgy has two main purposes. The first is to assist the departed, through prayers and hymns, in their journey to heaven. The second is to provide comfort to the loved ones who remain, through realisation that Christ defeated death. The Maronite funeral liturgy focuses on praying for all those faithful who have fallen asleep through death, that they may be raised to eternal life.

The Maronite funeral rites are made up of distinct parts known as stations.

Previously, significant memorial days were held on the third, ninth and fortieth day. Memorial services were also held on the yearly anniversary of the burial. The significance of the days, are explained by Patriarch Doueihi (1704), in the “Lamp of the Sanctuary” (Lord only knows when someone is going to get around to translating his full works into English):

“We celebrate the Divine Service [on behalf of the dead] on the third day, because the Lord rose from the dead on the third day, thus becoming the first-born and head of those who fell asleep; on the fortieth day because he ascended into heaven after forty days; on the ninth day because [the departed] become “companions” of the nine choirs of the angels, and mostly because the Lord sent the Spirit Paraclete to the apostles nine days after his ascension, that he might lift up their spirits and give them courage; last, at the end of the year: as we commemorate, each year, the feast (literally, birth) of the saints, the departed [are remembered] because they share with them everlasting life.”

In those prayers, in particular when we look in the Offering for the Commemoration of the Faithful Departed, it is evident that we continue to pray for them.

I am sure the others will chime in if with more…

 

[twf]

Yes, Malphono, but as I understand them (I don’t think we have anything equivalent to this in the COC, though I don’t know for sure) they are more general commemorations along the lines of the Byzantine day, so the point still stands: The Western and Eastern/Oriental days are not the same, just because they have the same name in English. One is specific in the way it is tied in to Western theology that has no non-Western analogue (from the link, it seems that they even have separate commemorations for those who have seen the “Beatific Vision” and those who haven’t), and the other is general, for all the saints of a given church.

It reminds me a bit of my Christmas experience since becoming Orthodox: Since I’m always at home in California with family at this time, I’ll get calls from Copts on “Western Christmas” (Dec. 25) wishing me “Merry Christmas”, and I in turn will call them on January 7th to send my greetings for the blessed Nativity. They’re both “Christmas”, but they’re really not the same thing. (NB: Christmas in my family, as in the West in general, is not a religious holiday, and the Copts who call me know that, since they know that my father joined that anti-Christian cult; they even lament, as I do, that I cannot be around on January 7 to celebrate the birth of Christ with them.)

Isn’t there some value in focussing on what we share in common rather than constantly trying to maximize the differences?
Long and short of it, what is the point of the two feasts in both Traditions? To celebrate all of those who have gone to be with the Lord in heaven. Period. The average Catholic will not see it as anything beyond, nor will the average Byzantine Christian. In the Roman Rite, November 2, the commeration of all the faithful departed, has a connection to purgatory…but November 1 is simply a celebration of all of those saints, that great cloud of witnesses, that went before us.

 

[JRS_88]

Joe,

It is lovely too see you back and don’t worry many of us as Maronites are poorly catechized, the problem is we do not have many places to look to be better catechized especially if we only speak English. In any case I am pretty certain that our prayers help souls to heaven - I am sure Malphono or MorEphrem will correct me if I am wrong.

More information can be found about the Maronite Funeral Rites in the
“Book of Ginnazat” – Diocese of St Maroun – USA maroniten.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/maronite-funeral-rites.pdf

And in a very interesting dissertation written by Nadim Abou Zeid uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/862/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1 (not sure I agree with every part of it - but great starting point).

In essence, for Maronites, death is the end of our earthly life and the beginning of a journey to our heavenly home. In the Maronite Church, the funeral liturgy has two main purposes. The first is to assist the departed, through prayers and hymns, in their journey to heaven. The second is to provide comfort to the loved ones who remain, through realisation that Christ defeated death. The Maronite funeral liturgy focuses on praying for all those faithful who have fallen asleep through death, that they may be raised to eternal life.

The Maronite funeral rites are made up of distinct parts known as stations.

Previously, significant memorial days were held on the third, ninth and fortieth day. Memorial services were also held on the yearly anniversary of the burial. The significance of the days, are explained by Patriarch Doueihi (1704), in the “Lamp of the Sanctuary” (Lord only knows when someone is going to get around to translating his full works into English):

“We celebrate the Divine Service [on behalf of the dead] on the third day, because the Lord rose from the dead on the third day, thus becoming the first-born and head of those who fell asleep; on the fortieth day because he ascended into heaven after forty days; on the ninth day because [the departed] become “companions” of the nine choirs of the angels, and mostly because the Lord sent the Spirit Paraclete to the apostles nine days after his ascension, that he might lift up their spirits and give them courage; last, at the end of the year: as we commemorate, each year, the feast (literally, birth) of the saints, the departed [are remembered] because they share with them everlasting life.”

In those prayers, in particular when we look in the Offering for the Commemoration of the Faithful Departed, it is evident that we continue to pray for them.

I am sure the others will chime in if with more…

Thank you so much for the reply and links to resources. I truly appreciate this.
I glanced at the dissertation and it seems quite informative. I have seen the funeral rites before but never took the time to read them. Now’s the time.

I’m going to take some time to read these. On Wednesday I’m going to see the priest to discuss this.

It would be great to hear what other Maronites have to say.

• Joe