All Souls Plenary Indulgence Question

[EasterJoy]

A woman I know who is hoping to gain a plenary indulgence for poor souls granted between Nov. 1-8 was told by someone teaching a class on purgatory that when a plenary indulgences is gained for someone already in heaven, that particular soul would still benefit by being granted some sort of elevation amongst the blessed.

She said the instructor who made this claim had some sort of impressive credentials, so I didn’t say anything, but this sounds made-up to me.

Does anybody know anything about this?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Sounds pretty made-up to me, too.

Once you experience the beatific vision, what more is there? Nothing.

 

[TheMc]

Sounds pretty made-up to me, too.

Once you experience the beatific vision, what more is there? Nothing.

agreed.

 

[jimrob]

“already” is a temporal notion. God does not have a past or future but exists in the perpetual “now”. Prayer can never be too early or too late.

It would be a great act of presumption to claim to know how purgatory works. All we know is that it is an act of spiritual mercy to pray for the dead and to gain indulgences for them. We cannot separate ourselves from the idea of time, but we can trust God to do so.

 

[michaelmas]

A woman I know who is hoping to gain a plenary indulgence for poor souls granted between Nov. 1-8 was told by someone teaching a class on purgatory that when a plenary indulgences is gained for someone already in heaven, that particular soul would still benefit by being granted some sort of elevation amongst the blessed.

She said the instructor who made this claim had some sort of impressive credentials, so I didn’t say anything, but this sounds made-up to me.

Does anybody know anything about this?

Never heard of that. But what I understand is if that happens the indulgence goes to another soul in purgatory.

 

[EasterJoy]

“already” is a temporal notion. God does not have a past or future but exists in the perpetual “now”. Prayer can never be too early or too late.

It would be a great act of presumption to claim to know how purgatory works. All we know is that it is an act of spiritual mercy to pray for the dead and to gain indulgences for them. We cannot separate ourselves from the idea of time, but we can trust God to do so.

I think the idea was to “reassure” someone who might be praying for the “poor soul” who was actually St. Somebody that their prayer was not “wasted”?

Maybe the idea the instructor was trying to get at was that if one were to offer prayers for the soul of, say, St. Therese of Liseux, the effort on the behalf of poor souls would be joined to her intercessions for poor souls and, in a simple-minded way, “she” would just save that many more? (I use the quotes because I think St. Therese would say the Lord saved that many more by turning more souls to join his saving work by adding works of charity to his, and who would a saint give the glory to for that but the Lord?)

 

[EasterJoy]

Never heard of that. But what I understand is if that happens the indulgence goes to another soul in purgatory.

That is the way I would put it, although I don’t think there is a “banking system.”

 

[Marie5890]

A woman I know who is hoping to gain a plenary indulgence for poor souls granted between Nov. 1-8 was told by someone teaching a class on purgatory that when a plenary indulgences is gained for someone already in heaven, that particular soul would still benefit by being granted some sort of elevation amongst the blessed.

She said the instructor who made this claim had some sort of impressive credentials, so I didn’t say anything, but this sounds made-up to me.

Does anybody know anything about this?

I know someone on EWTN’s “Women of Grace” made that claim.

The lady known as Susan Tossone (sp?)

susantassone.com/

The NewAdvent does say that there ARE degrees of glory within the Beautific vision

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

(edit more info)
I just did a google search and the church does teach different degree of beatitude. So the idea of giving someone a “boost” who already has the beatific vision may have some merit.

 

[Marie5890]

(more from a thread in the Traditional Catholic forum)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=613795

 

[TempleofTheSoul]

I know someone on EWTN’s “Women of Grace” made that claim.

The lady known as Susan Tossone (sp?)

susantassone.com/

The NewAdvent does say that there ARE degrees of glory within the Beautific vision

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

(edit more info)
I just did a google search and the church does teach different degree of beatitude. So the idea of giving someone a “boost” who already has the beatific vision may have some merit.

I also think that this is made up. And if Susan Tassone said this then she is wrong to have said it. Perhaps she was referring to purgatory and not heaven.

I don’t think there is a reward system in place in heaven where the soul who gets the most prayers wins and moves up to the next glory level. When we enter heaven we have achieved the state of glory we are to remain in for all eternity.

But we can achieve higher degrees of glory here on earth as we become more “perfected” spiritually and it continues on in purgatory where the soul is tried in a spiritual fire that purifies the soul til’ it becomes “perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect”. In the bible it states 2 Cor. 3:18 “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.”

God bless

 

[TomD123]

1. There are degrees of glory in heaven but once in heaven I think that this is fixed. We merit on earth and this is what determines our degree of glory and happiness in heaven (Council of Florence)
2. When we pray, gain indulgences, perform works of mercy, etc. for a particular dead person, we are asking God to apply our work to a particular person. God will do what he sees as best, our prayer does not oblige him to do anything. Therefore, if someone is in no need of our prayers (i.e. in heaven) or could not benefit from them (hell), then God uses the value of the prayer for someone else.

:twocents:

Tom

 

[Marie5890]

I paraphrased Susan Tossone poorly. This is what she said to the NCRegister

"But what happens if the soul then gets to heaven and you continue to have Masses and prayers offered?

The common answer is that God will apply those Masses to other souls in purgatory or to the most in need or souls in your family. But there’s more: If the soul is already in heaven, and you continue to have Masses said for them and continue to pray for them, what they get is a term we get from Thomas Aquinas — “accidental glory.”

The soul gets an increase in its intimacy with God and an increase in its intercessory power. So the lesson is this: Never stop praying for your dead, no matter how long they’ve been gone. You continue to push them up higher. The prayers are never wasted. God is never outdone in generosity."

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/how-to-help-the-holy-souls-in-purgatory

ncregister.com/daily-news/how-to-help-the-holy-souls-in-purgatory/

 

[EasterJoy]

The prayers are never wasted. God is never outdone in generosity.

This is my opinion, but I think it is best to say that and leave it at that. Trying to get into some math about how the generosity of God has to work seems a bit over-anxious to me.

 

[Marie5890]

This is my opinion, but I think it is best to say that and leave it at that. Trying to get into some math about how the generosity of God has to work seems a bit over-anxious to me.

Are you saying you dont want to get involved in any form of mental gymnastics?

Those creep in from time to time huh?



I have to admit I find it curious as to what St Thomas Aquinas (the church’s premiere theologian where so much our philosophy is based on) ment by “accidental glory”

 

[Marsha_Adams]

That is the way I would put it, although I don’t think there is a “banking system.”

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (emphaisis mine):

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. "The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."86

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."89

As I understand it, our prayers can also be added to that treasury. I have had Masses said for Blessed Pius IX, to make the infinite merit and grace of that Mass available to him to use for whom he will.

 

[tjwdsssc2015]

JMJ

According to the Norms listed in the Handbook of Indulgences, “Both partial and plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead as suffrages” (no. 4).

I’ve asked a Canonist about this question, having it myself (with some other details). However, my interpretation is that we can offer our prayers, merits, and indulgences for a particular soul, but that doesn’t mean it will apply to that soul. Theologically, insofar as our soul is separated from our body, we don’t have identity in the same way as we do on earth (cf. Aquinas, ST, Appen. I).

This is just me, but typically when I pray for souls, I offer my prayers either “for whoever in my family still needs it”, or for which ever soul is closest to being out, and needs just that one more prayer before making it to Heaven.

We certainly can still pray for any non-canonized soul, which includes any beatified souls. While we may have certainty they are in heaven, and while our prayers do not advance them within the heavenly realm as such, our prayers may help advance the cause for canonization, and we can still pray for miracles from their intercession. However, neither those in the Church penitent or triumphant gain merit as such from our works; we gain merit for our own salvation. We can only diminish the temporal punishment due to sin remaining for a individual (and of course this cannot be counted, as was thought in previous years).

 

[Vico]

A woman I know who is hoping to gain a plenary indulgence for poor souls granted between Nov. 1-8 was told by someone teaching a class on purgatory that when a plenary indulgences is gained for someone already in heaven, that particular soul would still benefit by being granted some sort of elevation amongst the blessed.

She said the instructor who made this claim had some sort of impressive credentials, so I didn’t say anything, but this sounds made-up to me.

Does anybody know anything about this?

Saint Thomas Aquinas speculated (Summa Theologica Part I, Q.12, Art.6):
Whether of those who see the essence of God, one sees more perfectly than another?
I answer that, Of those who see the essence of God, one sees Him more perfectly than another. This, indeed, does not take place as if one had a more perfect similitude of God than another, since that vision will not spring from any similitude; but it will take place because one intellect will have a greater power or faculty to see God than another. The faculty of seeing God, however, does not belong to the created intellect naturally, but is given to it by the light of glory, which establishes the intellect in a kind of “deiformity,” as appears from what is said above, in the preceding article.

Hence the intellect which has more of the light of glory will see God the more perfectly; and he will have a fuller participation of the light of glory who has more charity; because where there is the greater charity, there is the more desire; and desire in a certain degree makes the one desiring apt and prepared to receive the object desired. Hence he who possesses the more charity, will see God the more perfectly, and will be the more beatified.

newadvent.org/summa/1012.htm#article6

 

[gobind001]

SO nice .

Bucket elevator | Screw press | Pressure Leaf Filters

 

[EasterJoy]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (emphaisis mine):

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. "The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."86

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."89

As I understand it, our prayers can also be added to that treasury. I have had Masses said for Blessed Pius IX, to make the infinite merit and grace of that Mass available to him to use for whom he will.

Exactly. You can’t think of the treasury of the ineffable and inexhaustable in the way you would a common earthly treasury. Even while you attempt to describe, you are forced to remember that you are considering something that defies full description.

 

[EasterJoy]

Saint Thomas Aquinas speculated (Summa Theologica Part I, Q.12, Art.6):
Whether of those who see the essence of God, one sees more perfectly than another?
I answer that, Of those who see the essence of God, one sees Him more perfectly than another. This, indeed, does not take place as if one had a more perfect similitude of God than another, since that vision will not spring from any similitude; but it will take place because one intellect will have a greater power or faculty to see God than another. The faculty of seeing God, however, does not belong to the created intellect naturally, but is given to it by the light of glory, which establishes the intellect in a kind of “deiformity,” as appears from what is said above, in the preceding article.

Hence the intellect which has more of the light of glory will see God the more perfectly; and he will have a fuller participation of the light of glory who has more charity; because where there is the greater charity, there is the more desire; and desire in a certain degree makes the one desiring apt and prepared to receive the object desired. Hence he who possesses the more charity, will see God the more perfectly, and will be the more beatified.

newadvent.org/summa/1012.htm#article6

This all makes perfect sense. Still, St. Thomas does not treat the degree to which God will continue to refine each soul as it is willing, until the soul reaches the state God intends.

What I love about the idea of praying for others is the economy of grace implied: The helper is always helped, the one who wills the other’s advancement also advances, and it is the charity and selflessness of the act that opens the floodgates of grace. Grace, that is the action of God, propels it all, yet all is done by the cooperation of the free will of the soul, whereby the soul is brought closer to the state God intends. It is marvelous.