V
Vico
Guest
“When He shall appear we shall be like to Him, because we shall see Him as He is.” 1 John 3:2.
Summa Theologica Question 92 goes further, but it requires careful reading.
newadvent.org/summa/5092.htm#article3
- Status
Summa Theologica Question 92 goes further, but it requires careful reading.
newadvent.org/summa/5092.htm#article3
B
Bengal
Guest
I know historically, Catholic boys in the dark ages would “trick or treat” for souls. Since the idea is or was that the more prayers a soul got would help them get into heaven. In return for their prayers they were given spice cakes.
Now for indulgences, I doubt they are going to forbid you from Heaven, since now God understands. The trick is to learn how to enjoy them and limit them. People often forget all the reasons why Jesus was sent to us. We focus on the forgiveness of sins that we forgot God wanted to understand the creatures he created. People need to realize that some times you can’t put a doctrine or a label on faith. Somethings just have to be labeled as faith and left at that.
Faith and religion is an evolutionary progress within a person. If people are truly faithful they will grow into a communal faith with other religions and their own. Since our God is a good of many faces, true from true God. The creed of the Catholic Church sees all faiths as true, but we believe in the truest of faces.
Sometimes you need to ignore the religion and look at your faith. Did Jesus look at sinner as trash? Did he ask the sinner for compensation? No. Jesus is a kind loving God, and we need to remember that it’s His Word above the Church. He took the people that indulged too much and took them in and had supper with them. So, this teacher is a whack job. She needs to revisit her faith not her religion.
Now for indulgences, I doubt they are going to forbid you from Heaven, since now God understands. The trick is to learn how to enjoy them and limit them. People often forget all the reasons why Jesus was sent to us. We focus on the forgiveness of sins that we forgot God wanted to understand the creatures he created. People need to realize that some times you can’t put a doctrine or a label on faith. Somethings just have to be labeled as faith and left at that.
Faith and religion is an evolutionary progress within a person. If people are truly faithful they will grow into a communal faith with other religions and their own. Since our God is a good of many faces, true from true God. The creed of the Catholic Church sees all faiths as true, but we believe in the truest of faces.
Sometimes you need to ignore the religion and look at your faith. Did Jesus look at sinner as trash? Did he ask the sinner for compensation? No. Jesus is a kind loving God, and we need to remember that it’s His Word above the Church. He took the people that indulged too much and took them in and had supper with them. So, this teacher is a whack job. She needs to revisit her faith not her religion.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Oh, you misunderstand! We aren’'t talking about the self-indulgent kind of indulgences!
By “indulgence” we mean a technical term describing acts of piety that by the mercy of God gain a particular benefit (or indulgence) for someone. The benefit in this case is is “remission of the temporal punishment due to sin, the guilt of which has been forgiven”. (newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm) Sometimes indulgences are gained by the person performing the act, sometimes they are performed in order to gain the benefit (or indulgence) for someone else.
What is meant by the “temporal punishment” due to sin? Since God’s laws and punishments are in no way arbitrary, you might want to translate that as the “temporal consequences” of sin. For instance, if you violate your mother’s rule that you have to study or that you are not to leave your toys where they can be rained on, we mean the natural consequences that follow from violating her wise rules, which weren’t arbitrary but meant to prevent actual harm.
The “eternal consequence” is that you have damaged your relationship with your mother. She forgives you: the eternal consequence is erased. It is like it never happened. But what about the reason she had the rules? You wouldn’t know what you need to know, which is why you had a duty to study in the first place. Or maybe your toys were damaged, and need to be dried out or repaired before anyone could use them again. Those are the “temporal consequences” of your actions. Even though you are totally forgiven, the work of fixing the damage you caused still needs to be done.
OK, so your brother dries out and fixes your toys or helps you learn your missed lessons. What does this do? Well, it takes some of the work of fixing the damage you did off of you. It also strengthens the relationship between you and your brother, between you and your mother, and between your brother and you. Your brother’s act of love, then, did help to repair the “temporal consequences” of your sin, but that is not all! They also strenthened the bonds of love in your family.
The idea behind the Magesterium describing particular ways to gain these “indulgences” in detail is to encourage people to perform certain acts of piety by assuring them that these acts will have the effect of repairing the damage done by sin or that it will work towards an advancement in grace intended by God that was prevented by sin. It doesn’t mean that this is the only way to perform acts of piety that will have a good effect! It means, rather, that the Magesterium (using their knowledge of spirtual cause and effect and the power given to them to “bind and loose”) provide guidance regarding *sure *ways to repair the consequences of sin.
You can look at the Manual of Indulgences as being like a exercise manual put out by the Mayo Clinic. The doctors or exercise experts wouldn’t be saying, “If you do any other exercises than these, you won’t get better or gain strength!” Far from it! Rather, they are saying, “These are exercises that have been written down for those who have asked for guidance about how to gain strength in this area or that. Do these exercises in the way described, and you will be both gaining strength and avoiding unintentional harm.”
That is knowledge well worth having!!
E
EasterJoy
Guest
To recap fo Bengal and all:
So, IMHO, I think the question boils down to this:
Typically, people perform acts of piety for which indulgences are promised in order to achieve some particular work for some particular person who needs it. The question is this: What if that effect was achieved by acts previously performed…what happens? Who benefits?"
No one doubts that there is a benefit. Acts of piety done out of love are never wasted. Still, there is an intellectual curiosity concerning the nature of the benefit. That’s the main thing, and I think everyone agrees on that. The rest is speculation…and why not?
The teacher thought that if you prayed for a soul you thought was in Purgatory but that was in fact in heaven, the soul you were praying for would benefit in other ways, even if that soul was already in heaven.
Others think that a soul already in heaven is beyond needing benefit, that they will be at a “level” ordained by God at which their happiness cannot be surpassed, and that the indulgence would therefore improve the lot of someone else who has not yet reached the fullness of their union with God.
Others (including me) think that perhaps at this point the banking metaphor that we’re using has gone past its breaking point when we start discussing what happends when we pray for a soul that is already in full union with God. We know the soul we’re praying for will get the benefit it needs if it needs it, and if not, we still know that the effort will come to some good that will please God. For us, it is enough to know that.
Personally, though, I don’t think it is such a bad thing to wonder about this stuff. It is just that on an intellectual level, I simply feel as if the metaphor is exhausted. On a spirtual level, though, I feel my opinion is neither here nor there. I’m betting that perhaps it is a more accurate description of the situation, but holding that opinion does not put me above or below those with more specific opinions. Once we all agreed that the benefit is gained, I don’t think it matters much what our opinion is about the rest.
So, IMHO, I think the question boils down to this:
Typically, people perform acts of piety for which indulgences are promised in order to achieve some particular work for some particular person who needs it. The question is this: What if that effect was achieved by acts previously performed…what happens? Who benefits?"
No one doubts that there is a benefit. Acts of piety done out of love are never wasted. Still, there is an intellectual curiosity concerning the nature of the benefit. That’s the main thing, and I think everyone agrees on that. The rest is speculation…and why not?
The teacher thought that if you prayed for a soul you thought was in Purgatory but that was in fact in heaven, the soul you were praying for would benefit in other ways, even if that soul was already in heaven.
Others think that a soul already in heaven is beyond needing benefit, that they will be at a “level” ordained by God at which their happiness cannot be surpassed, and that the indulgence would therefore improve the lot of someone else who has not yet reached the fullness of their union with God.
Others (including me) think that perhaps at this point the banking metaphor that we’re using has gone past its breaking point when we start discussing what happends when we pray for a soul that is already in full union with God. We know the soul we’re praying for will get the benefit it needs if it needs it, and if not, we still know that the effort will come to some good that will please God. For us, it is enough to know that.
Personally, though, I don’t think it is such a bad thing to wonder about this stuff. It is just that on an intellectual level, I simply feel as if the metaphor is exhausted. On a spirtual level, though, I feel my opinion is neither here nor there. I’m betting that perhaps it is a more accurate description of the situation, but holding that opinion does not put me above or below those with more specific opinions. Once we all agreed that the benefit is gained, I don’t think it matters much what our opinion is about the rest.
V
Vico
Guest
A significant point about the aim of indulgences is made in Indulgentarium Doctrina (1967):
“The aim pursued by ecclesiastical authority in granting indulgences is not only that of helping the faithful to expiate the punishment due sin but also that of urging them to perform works of piety, penitence and charity–particularly those which lead to growth in faith and which favor the common good.[39]
And if the faithful offer indulgences in suffrage for the dead, they cultivate charity in an excellent way and while raising their minds to heaven, they bring a wiser order into the things of this world.”
newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm
Also, another thought is that a distinction is made of having the beatific vision or not, and when it occurs.
The Catholic Baltimore Catechism No. 3 teaches that one is particularly judged immediately upon death as to eternal Heaven state, temporary Purgatory state, or eternal Hell state. Then later is the General Judgement when the particular judgements are made public and the bodies of the faithful will arise glorious and immortal, and also the bodies of the damned will arise. Those in temporary Purgatory state enter Heaven state (the Beatific Vision) when they are purified.
Q. 1384. Do we know what souls are in Purgatory, and how long they have to remain there?
A. We do not know what souls are in Purgatory nor how long they have to remain there; hence we continue to pray for all persons who have died apparently in the true faith and free from mortal sin. They are called the faithful departed.
Q. 1398. Are the rewards in heaven and the punishments in hell the same for all who enter into either of these states?
A. The rewards of heaven and the punishments in hell are not the same for all who enter into either of these states, because each one’s reward or punishment is in proportion to the amount of good or evil he has done in this world. But as heaven and hell are everlasting, each one will enjoy his reward or suffer his punishment forever.
ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-37.htm
- Status