"All spirit is matter" - Joseph Smith

[Jim_Dandy]

QUOTE

Speaking of eternal duration of matter, I said**:** There is no much thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified, we shall see that it is all matter. (May 17, 1843) D.H.C. [Documentary History of the Church] 5:392-3.

END QUOTE

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1976

‘Heavenly Father’ (God) and all Mormon gods or Gods and goddesses are matter (‘flesh and bones’). The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) is matter. All human souls are matter. According to Joseph Smith, “spirit” is nonexistent.

Isn’t “immaterial matter” an oxymoron?

Is this a prophet of God, as he and his followers claim?

 

[Tony888]

Yes, it is very hard to describe things completely outside our context of knowledge and language vocabulary. To oversimply the point, the english language of 500 yrs ago could not effectively describe the science nor the workings of a modern computer.

No LDS has claimed every teaching is revelation, nor is the word choice always perfect.

Why are you being hypercritical of a teaching that is not doctrine?

 

[valentino]

I don’t think spirit is matter.Show me where it says spirit is matter.IMO its something which can’t be explained in human terms.Like the mystery of the Trinity.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Yes, it is very hard to describe things completely outside our context of knowledge and language vocabulary. To oversimply the point, the english language of 500 yrs ago could not effectively describe the science nor the workings of a modern computer.

No LDS has claimed every teaching is revelation, nor is the word choice always perfect.

Why are you being hypercritical of a teaching that is not doctrine?

Joseph Smith lived from 12-23-1805 to 6-27-1844. He wasn’t writing the English language of 500 years ago.

The title of the book I quoted is The Teaching of Joseph Smith. The quotation is from the Documentary History of the Church, which is authored by Joseph Smith himself. Whether modern LDS consider it “doctrine” or not, it was definitely Smith’s own teaching – unbelievable as it is.

I don’t think it’s being hypercritical to merely quote what Smith himself wrote. This certainly calls into question Joseph Smith’s claim to be a prophet of God, as does his occupation. New York court records show that he was a treasure digger. It was well known that he was directed in his treasure-hunting endeavors by a magic “peep stone” in his hat.

Jim Dandy

 

[Tony888]

Joseph Smith lived from 12-23-1805 to 6-27-1844. He wasn’t writing the English language of 500 years ago.

The title of the book I quoted is The Teaching of Joseph Smith. The quotation is from the Documentary History of the Church, which is authored by Joseph Smith himself. Whether modern LDS consider it “doctrine” or not, it was definitely Smith’s own teaching – unbelievable as it is.

I don’t think it’s being hypercritical to merely quote what Smith himself wrote. This certainly calls into question Joseph Smith’s claim to be a prophet of God, as does his occupation. New York court records show that he was a treasure digger. It was well known that he was directed in his treasure-hunting endeavors by a magic “peep stone” in his hat.

Jim Dandy

My analogy stands in that Smith was trying to describe something for which we don’t have the context nor language to understand. Probably asking a caveman to describe a computer is closer to my attemting to describe God’s true nature (It’s not possible)

I fully support anyone quoting what smith or others may have stated, just so long as it’s clear what is considered scripture and what may be from audience notes during a public address, and not considered as doctrine.

Considering Smith’s knowledge of physics and how we now view matter, I recognize the ‘oxymoron’ but still feel you are being hypercritical.

Again, these teaching/quotes are cobbled together from audience notes (there was not recording mechanism in place and the speech notes were not published.

 

[Ahimsa]

Smith is correct, if you understand what spirit actually is. The “spirit” Smith is referring to, is the spiritual form that some people are able to see, the spiritual form possessed by so-called “ghosts” or “angels”. If you’re able to see, say, an angel, then you are seeing the form of that angel, which is composed of spirit, which, as Smith notes, is a more subtle, finer, from of matter.

Or, Smith could have said that matter is a denser form of spirit.

In either case, Smith is pointing to the fact that matter and spirit are simply different forms of the same “substance”.

 

[roselily]

I read , confused , wish to ask-

I do not know all spirit is matter; but I know that we have a physical body also a spiritual body.

Oh, God created all matters! …“The root of the matter is found in him”;-- Job 19:28

Nevertheless, the definition of ‘Matter’ is the substance or material of which all things are made. Matter has mass, which can be measured in weight. Matter has volume. All things we can touch, taste or smell are matter.

 

[Ahimsa]

All things we can touch, taste or smell are matter.

Did you forget “see”?

 

[lax16]

I fully support anyone quoting what smith or others may have stated, just so long as it’s clear what is considered scripture and what may be from audience notes during a public address, and not considered as doctrine.

Hi Tony - Which of Joseph Smith’s teachings are considered doctrine?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

My analogy stands in that Smith was trying to describe something for which we don’t have the context nor language to understand. Probably asking a caveman to describe a computer is closer to my attemting to describe God’s true nature (It’s not possible)

Smith described the Mormon God’s true nature in D&C 130 and elsewhere: His nature is that of an “exalted” human. “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but it is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.” However, Smith has told us “All spirit is matter.” So the three Mormon gods (or Gods) are all composed of “stuff,” i.e., matter.

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth John 4:24

I fully support anyone quoting what smith or others may have stated, just so long as it’s clear what is considered scripture and what may be from audience notes during a public address, and not considered as doctrine.

The D&C is Mormon scripture. 130:6: “It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. 7, There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; 8, We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.”

Considering Smith’s knowledge of physics and how we now view matter, I recognize the ‘oxymoron’ but still feel you are being hypercritical.

Again, these teaching/quotes are cobbled together from audience notes (there was not recording mechanism in place and the speech notes were not published.

Nice try at defending your prophet, Tony, but it’s part of Mormon scripture.

Jim Dandy

 

[roselily]

All spirit is matter?
for I see that in every case that matter of spirit must be so very different from the matter we see now.
:angel1:

Yes. I once read 1Corinthians 15 and thought we will all be changed,

**42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.43It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.44It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.45Thus it is written, ‘The first man, Adam, became a living being’; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.46But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual.47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.48As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed,52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.54When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’

**
Think of it: now our physical body are perishable, but then we will be put on imperishability on this perishable body; think, then, how happy we shall be.
Oh, our Lord Father is Spirit and Trinity.
for in scripture say: God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. --John 4:24
And that also God is Trinity:**19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,–Matthew 28
**

 

[valentino]

Smith is correct, if you understand what spirit actually is. The “spirit” Smith is referring to, is the spiritual form that some people are able to see, the spiritual form possessed by so-called “ghosts” or “angels”. If you’re able to see, say, an angel, then you are seeing the form of that angel, which is composed of spirit, which, as Smith notes, is a more subtle, finer, from of matter.

Or, Smith could have said that matter is a denser form of spirit.

In either case, Smith is pointing to the fact that matter and spirit are simply different forms of the same “substance”.

How do you know some people are able to see a spiritual form?where do you get your information?

 

[Ahimsa]

How do you know some people are able to see a spiritual form?where do you get your information?

People see spiritual forms all the time – well, not literally all the time – in the form of ghosts, spirits, haints, etc.

 

[KathleenGee]

Ahimsa,

We are focusing on the Spirit that brings us new life…and the Christian source is Christ Himself, not Joseph Smith’s ‘revelations’.

Tony is a new Mormon just for a year and is not familiar with its whole spectrum of historical beliefs.

 

[Ahimsa]

Ahimsa,

We are focusing on the Spirit that brings us new life…and the Christian source is Christ Himself, not Joseph Smith’s ‘revelations’.

“Spirit” can mean different things in different contexts. When Smith talks about “all spirit is matter”, he is not referring to “the Spirit that brings us new life”.

Tony is a new Mormon just for a year and is not familiar with its whole spectrum of historical beliefs.

New Mormons have a lot to learn, I agree. As do new Catholics.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

“Spirit” can mean different things in different contexts. When Smith talks about “all spirit is matter”, he is not referring to “the Spirit that brings us new life”.

New Mormons have a lot to learn, I agree. As do new Catholics.

the statement “All spirit is matter” is incorrect by definition. Matter = material Spirit = immaterial. This is not a judgement of Joseph Smith, only a statement of logical fallacy. Sometimes it requires seemingly paradoxical statements to understand a fundamental truth.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the mormon view, but this is a very weak argument to take against the LDS. It would be like a buddhist picking Christianity apart based upon the statement “I am the true vine”… Well was Christ a man, or was he a vine?

Sorry, its just weak… This is obviously just a parable/simile designed to teach a deeper truth of the LDS faith.

P.S. Sorry, I intended to quote the OP… I replied to you on the next page… And I love ellipses…

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

“Spirit” can mean different things in different contexts. When Smith talks about “all spirit is matter”, he is not referring to “the Spirit that brings us new life”.

We need to be careful not to read our own interpretation into the text, but to take the entire text and attempt to understand that. In this case, Joseph Smith WAS referring to the spirit as our soul, Jesus Christ, and God, especially in light of his other writings.

New Mormons have a lot to learn, I agree. As do new Catholics.

Absolutely agree with the statement, but not the implication

 

[KathleenGee]

The point is the Mormons believe that God was a man at one time.

 

[Ahimsa]

the statement “All spirit is matter” is incorrect by definition. Matter = material Spirit = immaterial.

Spirit is “immaterial” – which means it is not the same thing as “matter”; it does not necessarily preclude the idea that both spirit and matter are different forms of the same substance.

 

[Ahimsa]

We need to be careful not to read our own interpretation into the text, but to take the entire text and attempt to understand that. In this case, Joseph Smith WAS referring to the spirit as our soul, Jesus Christ, and God, especially in light of his other writings.

I agree that context is crucial, and the context clearly shows that Smith is referring to a “spirit” that can (potentially) be seen and experienced.