"All spirit is matter" - Joseph Smith

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim_Dandy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
So no, they were not cobbled together from audience notes.
tony888 might not be thinking of LDS scripture, but of the King Follett Discourse, which a lot of Mormons distance themselves from alleging that the text we have is a late composition first made five years after Smith died. That would be a reasonable response, if that one version were the only evidence we have, but the KFD was copied in shorthand by five people, and all of their handwritten notes are amazingly still extant. In the 1970s, some BYU researchers put together a critical edition, using the five versions and applying normal methods of text criticism. They document they produced, replete with annontations and comparative text material, is not different from the standard printed version in any way that affects the thought and content of the speech. You can download it here. The substantial agreement among five scribes, including a later LDS prophet, Wilford Woodruff, establishes the KFD as authentic.

Cobbling together various reports of public statements is actually an effective way of verifying history, provided there are enough witnesses. In the case of Smith’s most controversial sermons, there always are. Thetrick is that Mormons always use words like “cobbling” that make the effort seem deperate and undisciplined. If you write instead, “comparative textual analysis” the illusion vanishes.
 
Do you think spirit over matter, Brothers sisters?
I believe so,
😊

**So you have pain now; but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.
–John 16:22
**
 
Let’s see – believing that God is material – and that spirit does not exist but is, in reality, matter – and that all that exists is matter – is not the belief that matter is the ultimate foundation of reality? Hmmm.:hmmm:
What Smith is trying to do, is to introduce a new way of thinking about “matter” or “substance”, not as limited to the atoms and sub-atomic particles known to physics, but as also including very subtle forms of “substance” that are not usually visible to humans, but are visible to those persons who have morally and spiritually purified themselves.
 
What Smith is trying to do, is to introduce a new way of thinking about “matter” or “substance”, not as limited to the atoms and sub-atomic particles known to physics, but as also including very subtle forms of “substance” that are not usually visible to humans, but are visible to those persons who have morally and spiritually purified themselves.
Do you have evidence for this? To my knowledge, Smith never spoke of atoms. In fact, modern atomic theory was still in a fairly speculative phase. Dalton had devised a way to calculate atomic weights – a major advance – but how well would Smith have understood the significance of that, if he knew about it?

Smith spoke of “matter” not “substance,” and I know of no evidence that he even saw a distinction between these words. To reduce all substantial existence to matter as such is the definition of materialism. Smith is not enlarging our notion of matter or substance, but lowering our notion of spirit and ultimately of god to the to the small and corporeal. It is little wonder, I think, that his revelation on materialism immediately precedes the section that explain eternal progression, but it is the materialist understanding of nature that allows Mormonism to place divine and human existence on the same natural plane. (Ironically this undermines the real doctrine of deification found in scripture, which is predicated on the distinction of divine and human nature.)
 
Do you have evidence for this? To my knowledge, Smith never spoke of atoms. In fact, modern atomic theory was still in a fairly speculative phase. Dalton had devised a way to calculate atomic weights – a major advance – but how well would Smith have understood the significance of that, if he knew about it?

Smith spoke of “matter” not “substance,” and I know of no evidence that he even saw a distinction between these words. To reduce all substantial existence to matter as such is the definition of materialism. Smith is not enlarging our notion of matter or substance, but lowering our notion of spirit and ultimately of god to the to the small and corporeal. It is little wonder, I think, that his revelation on materialism immediately precedes the section that explain eternal progression, but it is the materialist understanding of nature that allows Mormonism to place divine and human existence on the same natural plane. (Ironically this undermines the real doctrine of deification found in scripture, which is predicated on the distinction of divine and human nature.)
LDS theology about spirit is quite simple. In one’s pre-existence, one existed with a spirit (or a spiritual body, composed of very fine, very subtle “matter”). After one dies, one exists with a spiritual body again, until such time as one achieves a physical (bodily) resurrection.

Materialism teaches that there is no pre-existence, and that after you die, that’s it. No more “you”.

To equate LDS theology with materialism is to be quite mistaken.
 
People, we are talking about Mormons! It’s just like talking about truthfulness of Ancient Babylonian myths.
Joseph Smith was theological charlatan without any theological training.
You should more read Early Church Fathers like Ambrose, Augustine, Church Doctors like Saint Thomas Aquinas or Benedict XVI and his excellent books.
 
LDS theology about spirit is quite simple. In one’s pre-existence, one existed with a spirit (or a spiritual body, composed of very fine, very subtle “matter”). After one dies, one exists with a spiritual body again, until such time as one achieves a physical (bodily) resurrection.

Materialism teaches that there is no pre-existence, and that after you die, that’s it. No more “you”.

To equate LDS theology with materialism is to be quite mistaken.
Mormonism is materialist in the most absolute sense of the term. More even than polytheism, materialism is definitional of the Mormon worldview, not in spite of, but precisely because of the doctrine you have just articulated. “Materialism” is not defined either in modern times or historically as a denial of spirit, or spirituality, but as a denial of immaterial being. Diferences between Mormonism and other materialist religions and philosphies would only matter here if those differences pertained to the meaning of materialism. But Mormon belief in spirit matter is an alternative description of what matter is like, a lower-level distinction compared that does not bear on the fundamental definition. For a Mormon to say that something “is” means simply that it has some mode of material existence, and that means they are materialists.

Let me make the point even more strongly. When I say “Richard Dawkins is a materialist” and “Thomas S. Monson is a materialist” I am speaking univocally of both. In fact, Dawkins’s buddy Dan Dennett, a philospher of mind who is about as firm a materiliast as anybody, does not personally deny that there is a soul, but instead says that the soul is made of neurons. While that is a different description of the material soul from what Momrons say, the difference is not at the level of foundational ontology.
 
IMHO, saying that spirits are composed of any type of “matter” is very much like saying that a thought is made up of matter. Joseph Smith’s statement that “spirit = a purer form of matter” is his way of justifying his belief that God the Father has a physical body made up of ‘flesh and bone’. It certainly reduces the significance, if not the very existence, of God’s true Power. It limits Him to an existence within time and space, and denies Him being Omniscient or Omnipotent. This theory also helps him to explain his other unsupportable theory that all souls were ‘born’ in the ‘pre-existence’ as ‘spirit children’, who most other Christians refer to as ‘angels’ (including Jesus & Satan that were considered, by him, to be equals at that point in their existence). It’s just more of his ‘smoke & mirrors’ method of explaining to anyone willing to listen to him, why only he knew the real truth about God.

Again, this is JMHO of JS’s ‘theories’. 😉
 
Mormonism is materialist in the most absolute sense of the term. More even than polytheism, materialism is definitional of the Mormon worldview, not in spite of, but precisely because of the doctrine you have just articulated. “Materialism” is not defined either in modern times or historically as a denial of spirit, or spirituality, but as a denial of immaterial being. Diferences between Mormonism and other materialist religions and philosphies would only matter here if those differences pertained to the meaning of materialism. But Mormon belief in spirit matter is an alternative description of what matter is like, a lower-level distinction compared that does not bear on the fundamental definition. For a Mormon to say that something “is” means simply that it has some mode of material existence, and that means they are materialists.
Materialism occurs in many forms, some of which argue for the existence of non-“matter” as long as this non-“matter” is produced by matter and ceases to exist when its material basis ceases to exist.

Now, the question is: how does one define “matter”? Modern science defines matter in a very specific fashion: matter is that which is measurable by the instruments of modern science. Usually, this includes atoms and subatomic particles, as well as photons and various forms of energy. The common-sense, everyday definition of matter is quite similar: the common-sense definition of matter argued that matter was whatever can be experienced by the senses. Smith was aware that most people had this common-sense definition of matter, and that, for most people, what this meant was that whatever is non-“matter” – by definition – really cannot be experienced.

Smith wanted to turn this assumption on its head, to give a more accurate picture of reality. Smith argued that moral purification could in fact lead one to gain the ability to experience/see what was non-“matter” (or what was “spirit”). This spirit can not be measured by scientific instrumentation, and cannot be seen/experienced by those not morally purified. This spirit-body existed before the matter-body was born, and it will exist after the matter-body dissolves into its constituent elements.

Neither Dawkins nor Hitchens nor any of the contemporary materialistic atheists (for not all atheists are materialists) believe that there is a human spirit that precedes our life, and continues to exist after our death. To claim otherwise, to claim that Dawkins posits an after-life, or a pre-existence, is mind-boggling.

Smith does not claim that spirit is neurons. He’s claiming that spirit – which is, scientifically speaking, non-“matter” – can be experienced just like matter can, by those who are spiritually, morally, and divinely purified. And since spirit can be experienced/seen, spirit deserves to be thought of as not radically different from matter, but as a more subtle, a finer, manifestation of what otherwise manifests in grosser, more concrete form, as “matter”.
 
Materialism occurs in many forms, some of which argue for the existence of non-“matter” as long as this non-“matter” is produced by matter and ceases to exist when its material basis ceases to exist.

Now, the question is: how does one define “matter”? Modern science defines matter in a very specific fashion: matter is that which is measurable by the instruments of modern science. Usually, this includes atoms and subatomic particles, as well as photons and various forms of energy. The common-sense, everyday definition of matter is quite similar: the common-sense definition of matter argued that matter was whatever can be experienced by the senses. Smith was aware that most people had this common-sense definition of matter, and that, for most people, what this meant was that whatever is non-“matter” – by definition – really cannot be experienced.

Smith wanted to turn this assumption on its head, to give a more accurate picture of reality. Smith argued that moral purification could in fact lead one to gain the ability to experience/see what was non-“matter” (or what was “spirit”). This spirit can not be measured by scientific instrumentation, and cannot be seen/experienced by those not morally purified. This spirit-body existed before the matter-body was born, and it will exist after the matter-body dissolves into its constituent elements.

Neither Dawkins nor Hitchens nor any of the contemporary materialistic atheists (for not all atheists are materialists) believe that there is a human spirit that precedes our life, and continues to exist after our death. To claim otherwise, to claim that Dawkins posits an after-life, or a pre-existence, is mind-boggling.

Smith does not claim that spirit is neurons. He’s claiming that spirit – which is, scientifically speaking, non-“matter” – can be experienced just like matter can, by those who are spiritually, morally, and divinely purified. And since spirit can be experienced/seen, spirit deserves to be thought of as not radically different from matter, but as a more subtle, a finer, manifestation of what otherwise manifests in grosser, more concrete form, as “matter”.
I know all of this. Your post has missed my point. I have said that the real differences between Mormon materialism and normal, run-of-mill materialism are secondary features pertaining to the description of matter, but do not pertain to whether or not all existence is material. Where have your responded to this? The questions of the immortality of the soul and the susceptibility of matter to empirical observation are off-topic.

There is a logical issue in play here, which, in classical philosophy would be called the genus-species relation. Just as a dog and a bat are different species, they belong to a common genus, namely, animal. (By “genus” I am not speaking in the narrow sense of modern taxonomy, but in the broad sense, meaning any definitional classification that has subdivisions.) If I define animal as a “living being with sensation,” you would not argue that the bat and dog do not both belong to the genus animal because the bat has wings and the dog has feet. You couldn’t even argue that the bat’s ability to echolocate probably involves a type of sensation the dog does not possess. As long as they have any senses at all, the definition of animal applies to them both.

The same holds here. You clearly think that the immortality of the soul has a lot of bearing at this point. Well, it does distinguish Mormonism atheism; I have not contested that. But does it distinguish Mormonism from materialism? Consider these two propositions as alternative possible philosophies:

A) Matter is all that exists, and it is eternal.
B) Matter is all that exists, but it is not eternal.

These are two different, mutually exclusive propositions, but they are both express materialist philosophies. The same holds for these:

A) All spirit is matter, and it is eternal.
B) All spirit is matter, and it is not eternal.

By your account, proposition B counts as materialism, but not proposition A does not. Comparing this to the first set of propositions, do you see why I find this illogical?

And I have not claimed that any of the atheists believe in a pre-existence. You mind has been boggled by something you didn’t read.

(continued)
 
I am not the only one who thinks this. Up until about a year ago, I spent about three years almost daily contributing to a Mormon Apologetics message board now located at www.mormondialogue.org. Throughout that period, one staple of my apologetic was to identify materialist presuppositions in Mormon arguments, showing how Mormons were critiquing the Catholic worldview by uncritically presupposing assumptions from their own, rather than ever dealing with Catholicism it on its own terms. In doing so, I characterized Mormonism as materialist on a regular basis. BYU professors and students, lawyers, average joes, ex-catholics – I interacted with tons of them along the whole gamut, and asserted that Mormonism is a materialist religion many dozens of times. I did that for three years, and in all that time and ever since, you are the first person who has ever challenged me on whether Mormonism is materialist. They would pick apart my posts for any flaw they could find, yet no one ever called me out on that one.

There’s a reason. Mormons are not only materialist, but throughout their history, they have specifically criticized traditional Christianity for “Immaterialism.” Take, as a respresentative, though not authoritative example, the following McConkieism from Mormon Doctrine:
*Atheism is the disbelief in or denial of the existence of God. Such takes various forms, and there are many degrees of atheism. In the absolute sense, it is doubtful if there is such a person as an atheist, for even though one denies the traditionally taught concept of Deity, yet he probably worships at some other shrine as, for instance, the shrine of false intellectuality. At the other extreme, those who profess belief in the sectarian God are in a position at least akin to atheism for their God is defined in effect as an immaterial nothing.

Reasoning along this line Orson Pratt wrote: “There are two classes of atheists in the world. One class denies the existence of God in the most positive language; the other denies his existence in duration or space. One says There is no God'; the other says God is not here or there, any more than he exists now and then.’ The infidel says God does not exist anywhere.' The immaterialist says He exists nowhere.’ The infidel says, There is no such substance as God.’ The immaterialist says There is such a substance as God, but it is without parts.' The atheist says There is no such substance as spirit.’ The immaterialist says `A spirit, though he lives and acts, occupies no room, and fills no space in the same way and in the same manner as matter, not even so much as does the minutest grain of sand.’ The atheist does not seek to hide his infidelity; but the immaterialist, whose declared belief amounts to the same thing as the atheist’s, endeavors to hide his infidelity under the shallow covering of a few words. The immaterialist is a religious atheist; he only differs from the other class of atheists by clothing an indivisible unextended nothing with the powers of a God. One class believes in no God; the other believes that Nothing is god and worships it as such.” (Cited, Articles of Faith, p. 465.)*

If it seemed excessive of me to compare Monson with Dawkins, notice with what directness the same comparison is made here of us. The irony of course, it that McConkie’s reduction of immaterialism to atheism, depends on a premise he shares with most atheists: materialism. For the materialist, immateriality is the same as non-being, and so McConkie and Pratt simply jusge Christian thinking in that light. Another person, that most everyone can agree was a materialist, who did the same thing was Thomas Jefferson. See how favorably he is quoted by an early Mormon radio personality Heber C. Iverson:
What a fearful indictment of Christian teaching. This knowledge like their conviction of the immortality of the soul, and their instinctive turning to God in the hour of danger, is an organic instinct, and in spite of teachings to the contrary concerning the true character of God. They have deeply rooted in their soul instinct a belief in the true God. In the Church of England prayer book we have these words, “We believe in one living and true God, of infinite goodness, wisdom, and power, without body, parts or passions.” In other words, an incomprehensible, immaterial being! Thomas Jefferson expressed himself in a letter to his distinguished friend, John Adams, in this wise, “When we speak of an immaterial existence, we speak of nothing; when we say that God, angels, and the human soul are immaterial, we say there is no God, no angels, no human soul.” I cannot reason otherwise. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism or veiled atheism crept in, I do not know, but heresy it truly is. Christ taught none of it. True, he said, “God is a spirit!” but he had not yet defined what spirit is, nor hath he said that it is immaterial. And the Fathers of the first four centuries believed it to be material–fine, and ethereal, in very deed, but nevertheless material. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared that spirit is matter, that it is pure and elastic, fine and ethereal, but it is matter. Hence they found Christianity teaching an incomprehensible, immaterial, impossible God. Their belief in him is not founded upon the teaching of the past half century.

If the implications of this argument are not plain enough, consider as well that the same quote from Jefferson is also cited favorably by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion (2nd ed., p. 63).
 


The biblical evidence that spirit is immaterial is spread about, but gets one of its clearest treatments in Jesus’ dialogue with the Samaritan woman. When she asks him whether God should be worshipped in Jerusalem or Mt. Gerizim. Jesus replies that God can and will be worshipped anywhere, “in spirit and in truth.” Why? Because “God is spirit.” (Jn 4:24)

Mormons, including prophets as recent a Gordon B. Hinckley, have attempted to explain this verse by claiming that it simply means “God is spiritual.” It is true that the Greek construction, which literally reads, “Spirit the God,” could, grammatically, mean that. If only the context supported it. However, the entire point of Jesus asserting God’s spiritual nature is to answer the question about where in space God can be worshipped. The whole point is that transcendence of spatial limits is a property of spirit only. Jesus answers the Samaritan woman’s question by dissolving it: since God is not limited in space (as matter is) there is no exclusive location for pure worship, for spirit is as omnipresent as truth. Even more plain is the fact that Jesus explicitly reduces the Samaritan woman’s question to an error in understanding God’s nature: “You worship you know not what, but we know *what *we worship.” The resolution of the problem, “God is spirit,” is hence a definitional statement, as Catholics have always understood it, rather than a descriptive statement as Mormon leaders and apologists assert.

One could summarize the underlying components of the dialogue this way:
Samaritan woman: Where is God?
Jesus: You wouldn’t need to ask *where *he is if you knew *what *he is. He is spirit, and so he is everywhere.
Soren1,

Hello to you. I am glad to see that Catholics believe God can be worshiped everywhere, since I have often seen a comment that said someone needed to stop by their parish or cathedral to go in and pray, or was encouraging someone else to do that.

If Latter-day Saints believe God has a physical body but that His knowledge extends to knowing all things in the universe all at the same time, including knowing our thoughts and our feelings–as we do believe–then what it appears to me you are struggling with understanding is how that can be–how God could do that if He has a physical body.

Jesus did that when He had a physical body–He knew all things in the universe, and knew all thoughts and feelings. Are you saying God could not possibly do what Jesus showed that He could and did indeed do?

Why can’t God be worshiped in spirit (meaning our spirit is involved in the worship, and our body also–our mind, our feelings and emotions, our desire and commitment, our whole soul) and in truth (meaning that if we are doing true worship we will not be doing any sort of “faking” and will not be holding back from disclosing our innermost thoughts, feelings, emotions, “heart”–and also that the worshiper needs to have in mind a true relationship with God, where He is listening intimately and with full involvement and concentration, and yet have a physical body while being the Recipient of our worship?

God is all-loving power, energy, Light, Truth, Goodness, upholding all things by the word of His power and by the energy that emanates from His Person and extends throughout the universe. He can to that because He is Spirit with power, knowledge, and Truth emanating from His Person. This can happen from a Being with a physical body, as Jesus showed when He lived on the earth. (Surely you believe Jesus Christ had both a Spirit and a physical body.)
 
Spirit is “immaterial” – which means it is not the same thing as “matter”; it does not necessarily preclude the idea that both spirit and matter are different forms of the same substance.
🙂 Don’t you know “how did all that is come about,” Ahimsa?

😊

" Why not nothing?" why?
 
Hello to you. I am glad to see that Catholics believe God can be worshiped everywhere, since I have often seen a comment that said someone needed to stop by their parish or cathedral to go in and pray, or was encouraging someone else to do that.
If after 2 years here you are just coming to see that Catholics believe God can be worshiped everywhere, then you have not been paying attention to what we’ve said here. It seems you can’t be bothered with actually thinking about what we believe and just go with what ever notion fits your preconceived understanding of “what Catholics believe”.

While what you said is a rather good backhanded compliment it is a rather ironic point to try to make considering the LDS focus on temple worship with it’s “true order of prayer”.
 
If after 2 years here you are just coming to see that Catholics believe God can be worshiped everywhere, then you have not been paying attention to what we’ve said here. It seems you can’t be bothered with actually thinking about what we believe and just go with what ever notion fits your preconceived understanding of “what Catholics believe”.

While what you said is a rather good backhanded compliment it is a rather ironic point to try to make considering the LDS focus on temple worship with it’s “true order of prayer”.
Z,

What the first paragraph boils down to for me is that I was saying I didn’t (and still don’t) understand why, if Catholics believe God can be worshiped everywhere, the comments would come up saying that there was some important reason they desired to pray at a certain location.

It does bear on the discussion about worship to have brought up the idea of Latter-day Saint temple worship, which does compare with the “holy of holies” in the tabernacle and with what Moses was trying to prepare his followers for–which is to have been to prepare for being in the physical presence of God. That is a far different thing than being in the situation that He can “hear” a person.

It means being completely holy through the atonement of Christ such that the person’s own “body” can endure the holy presence and holy power and authority and majesty of God’s body. There is also the sense of community and of an eternal extended family within Latter-day Saint temple worship which also tie to gaining access to being prepared to be in the physical presence of God. So it is not a case of separate individuals seeking to be prepared to be invited into His physical presence in and of themselves through Christ, but a case of knowing that the whole plan of salvation engages family and community, including extended family through previous generations–“they without us cannot be made perfect”, as Paul wrote.

(If any questions come up about the above, then I may not be in a position because of sacredness to answer them depending on the kind of detail they ask about–so long as the question ties to the Bible and the tabernacle and “holy of holies” as explained there, I could answer it within the context of temple worship but it will also depend on the tone of the writer.)
 
That is because a Mormon church is nothing but a building, empty when the people are gone. There would be no conceivable reason to view it as a special place of prayer.

St. Paul is speaking of Christ’s Salvation for all mankind, from Adam to ourselves. He isn’t referencing Mormon temple rituals.
 
That is because a Mormon church is nothing but a building, empty when the people are gone. There would be no conceivable reason to view it as a special place of prayer…
OK, RebeccaJ,

So why is the Cathedral “a special place of prayer” if you are taught that anywhere you go you should be able to worship God and He will be “right there”. Why isn’t anywhere you go a “special place of prayer”?
 
OK, RebeccaJ,

So why is the Cathedral “a special place of prayer” if you are taught that anywhere you go you should be able to worship God and He will be “right there”. Why isn’t anywhere you go a “special place of prayer”?
It is a choice ParkerD. A Catholic can and does pray anywhere at any time.

A Catholic church is not empty. A church (not just a Cathedral) is a temple, where God’s presence in the tabernacle makes it a special place in general, but also a place to pray.

A church is also a good place where one can find peace and quiet, that is apart from the everyday cares of the world. It is important to have that in your spiritual life. Of course this does not have to be a church, but for many people, it is.

Also, it is where we pray together. Not just on Sundays but everyday, together, as the Body of the Church. No one is a Christian alone.
 
OK, RebeccaJ,

So why is the Cathedral “a special place of prayer” if you are taught that anywhere you go you should be able to worship God and He will be “right there”. Why isn’t anywhere you go a “special place of prayer”?
So you can go to a landfill and worship God?

Jesus Christ is especially present in The Blessed Sacrament. That’s something what is called “The Real Presence”. You have never heard about that? I think that is very empty life of a believer which doesn’t believe in The Real Presence and I think that a Christian faith without it is very empty.
God is omnipresent, He is everywhere, but He is not in everything.
And God is there “where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20). This ideal is best expressed in the mystery of the Holy Eucharist. People are gathered in Christ’s name and everybody becomes a part of Christ, of the Church, through the Communion (togetherness in Latin).
Mormons only pass crackers and drink water (:confused:) and how could it be done in the remembrance of Christ? You can do this stuff on a picnic. But this is not a threat about the Eucharist. I just want to show you how Catholic Eucharist and Christ’s Real Presence make the difference about spaces.
 
Z,

What the first paragraph boils down to for me is that I was saying I didn’t (and still don’t) understand why, if Catholics believe God can be worshiped everywhere, the comments would come up saying that there was some important reason they desired to pray at a certain location.

It does bear on the discussion about worship to have brought up the idea of Latter-day Saint temple worship, which does compare with the “holy of holies” in the tabernacle and with what Moses was trying to prepare his followers for–which is to have been to prepare for being in the physical presence of God. That is a far different thing than being in the situation that He can “hear” a person.

It means being completely holy through the atonement of Christ such that the person’s own “body” can endure the holy presence and holy power and authority and majesty of God’s body. There is also the sense of community and of an eternal extended family within Latter-day Saint temple worship which also tie to gaining access to being prepared to be in the physical presence of God. So it is not a case of separate individuals seeking to be prepared to be invited into His physical presence in and of themselves through Christ, but a case of knowing that the whole plan of salvation engages family and community, including extended family through previous generations–“they without us cannot be made perfect”, as Paul wrote.

(If any questions come up about the above, then I may not be in a position because of sacredness to answer them depending on the kind of detail they ask about–so long as the question ties to the Bible and the tabernacle and “holy of holies” as explained there, I could answer it within the context of temple worship but it will also depend on the tone of the writer.)
You are making it all the more obvious that you have not been reading those you respond to, Kathleen, Rich and Rebecca have all eloquently explained why we would suggest going to church. And from your temple experience you should at least be able to understand why, not agree with us, but at least have a faint understanding. Like someone first hearing of a Quinceanera saying oh it’s kind of like a Debutante Ball. As to Catholics believing God can’t hear you unless you are in church, no one has said anything like that. I’ve read “anit-Mormon” posters who claim that LDS believe the same about your temples, I never could accept what they were saying. It never made sense that anyone would believe God couldn’t hear you from where ever you were. As I said if after two years of reading people like Rich and Kathleen, this is what you come up with either you are incapable of empathy or you have no intention of even trying to understand our view. I think you feel they have nothing worth while to say, that when it comes to someone telling their experience you ignore it because well what could they know lacking the Holy Spirit? So you skip over all their posts, posts that are in a similar vein as yours above about the temple because they are just the silly thoughts of misguided people in a quaint but false church, and as such you can’t be bothered with their understanding. You have shown no interest what so ever in even an attempt at understanding.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top