"All spirit is matter" - Joseph Smith

[ParkerD]

…
Jesus Christ is especially present in The Blessed Sacrament. That’s something what is called “The Real Presence”. You have never heard about that?

Belov UCIC,

See, I don’t believe Jesus is especially present as you have described. I have read about this, but that doesn’t mean I believe it, nor does it mean I feel I am missing out on anything by not believing it.

I think it shows an inconsistency in the two doctrines or beliefs–this item you have brought up and the item that God is a Spirit with no physical body possible for Him.

 

[ParkerD]

You are making it all the more obvious that you have not been reading those you respond to, Kathleen, Rich and Rebecca have all eloquently explained why we would suggest going to church. And from your temple experience you should at least be able to understand why, not agree with us, but at least have a faint understanding. Like someone first hearing of a Quinceanera saying oh it’s kind of like a Debutante Ball. As to Catholics believing God can’t hear you unless you are in church, no one has said anything like that. I’ve read “anit-Mormon” posters who claim that LDS believe the same about your temples, I never could accept what they were saying. It never made sense that anyone would believe God couldn’t hear you from where ever you were. As I said if after two years of reading people like Rich and Kathleen, this is what you come up with either you are incapable of empathy or you have no intention of even trying to understand our view. I think you feel they have nothing worth while to say, that when it comes to someone telling their experience you ignore it because well what could they know lacking the Holy Spirit? So you skip over all their posts, posts that are in a similar vein as yours above about the temple because they are just the silly thoughts of misguided people in a quaint but false church, and as such you can’t be bothered with their understanding. You have shown no interest what so ever in even an attempt at understanding.

Z,

Thanks for the heart-felt post.

I do sometimes skip over some of the comments.

I do see inconsistencies in some of the beliefs, and in trying to understand them I sometimes end up thinking, “well, I guess I never will” because of the internal inconsistency. But that doesn’t mean I don’t respect that those beliefs may be very special in someone’s life–it means, as I have said, that I personally don’t understand, and doubt that I ever will because I do see inconsistencies that I don’t see being bridged.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Z,

Thanks for the heart-felt post.

I do sometimes skip over some of the comments.

I do see inconsistencies in some of the beliefs, and in trying to understand them I sometimes end up thinking, “well, I guess I never will” because of the internal inconsistency. But that doesn’t mean I don’t respect that those beliefs may be very special in someone’s life–it means, as I have said, that I personally don’t understand, and doubt that I ever will because I do see inconsistencies that I don’t see being bridged.

Your response to Beluvucic demonstrates again you have no intention of trying to understand otherwise how to explain why you think Catholics don’t believe in the Incarnation.

 

[belovucic]

Belov UCIC,

See, I don’t believe Jesus is especially present as you have described. I have read about this, but that doesn’t mean I believe it, nor does it mean I feel I am missing out on anything by not believing it.

I think it shows an inconsistency in the two doctrines or beliefs–this item you have brought up and the item that God is a Spirit with no physical body possible for Him.

I don’t believe in your “God” or gods, I don’t know, who had sexual intercourses with “heavenly mother” and Jesus who was brother of Satan. Yes, I have read about it I am very glad that I don’t believe in such things.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Cut and pasted from LDS: understanding of infant baptism

BYUChemAlum:

We believe that they are able to repent in the spirit world, just like they would in this life if they had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accept or reject it.

I am perplexed about this so-called “spirit world.” Spirits do not have parts and do not occupy space. Joseph Smith teaches that all spirit is matter (D&C 131:7-8). Matter has parts and occupies space.

Since the many gods and all the spirits are material, how can there be a world of “spirits”? Since this “world” is necessarily material, according to J Smith, where is it? There is no “where” to spirits. “Where” means “in what location in space.” Spirits are not in space at all. Can you explain? Here’s a link to the thread were this is discussed:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=574433&highlight=all+spirit+is+matter

I’ll cut and paste your post and my reply there.

Jim Dandy

 

[ParkerD]

… Yes, I have read about it I am very glad that I don’t believe in such things.

Belov UCIC,

I’m glad you don’t, because neither do I in the way you described any of those items you mentioned. You have fashioned a caricature and called it something sacred, and might want to reconsider doing that sort of thing.

Peace to you, and have a good day.

 

[ParkerD]

Your response to Beluvucic demonstrates again you have no intention of trying to understand otherwise how to explain why you think Catholics don’t believe in the Incarnation.

Zaffiroborant,

I don’t know where you received the impression that I think “Catholics don’t believe in the Incarnation”. I think they do, but I don’t understand the details of how they think of it in detail as to what it means. Why should I try and understand what I perceive are inconsistencies among an entire set of beliefs?

I have more important things to do than try and reconcile those inconsistencies–rather, I see them and say to myself, “That’s fine for those who believe in that way–but I wouldn’t be on that same bridge.” And I certainly am aware that they have that same attitude about my beliefs–which is just fine, so long as the beliefs are talked about accurately and with raised questions, doubts–fine, just not scorn or that means they will have lost charity in the comment.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The inconsistencies are not with Christian doctrine. The perceived inconsistency comes from filtering what you read/hear through Mormon errors. Until you can understand that God is not made in the image of man, you will always have this problem.

But, you have a lot invested in this form of idolatry, and blockages placed in your way, the first being, threats against your family (losing them). This is a deception that goes along with the false god you follow, so it goes in circles.

You are trapped, and wish to remain so.

I’m not telling you this out of malice or with the intent to offend. You can’t know you’re trapped until someone tells you. So now you know.

God Created us in Freedom, of which, you have not experienced.

 

[ParkerD]

The inconsistencies are not with Christian doctrine. The perceived inconsistency comes from filtering what you read/hear through Mormon errors. Until you can understand that God is not made in the image of man, you will always have this problem.

But, you have a lot invested in this form of idolatry, and blockages placed in your way, the first being, threats against your family (losing them). This is a deception that goes along with the false god you follow, so it goes in circles.

You are trapped, and wish to remain so.

I’m not telling you this out of malice or with the intent to offend. You can’t know you’re trapped until someone tells you. So now you know.

God Created us in Freedom, of which, you have not experienced.

RebeccaJ,

So I emphasize free will choice repeatedly in this forum, and note that Jesus deliberately acted in ways to keep free will choice available with no sense of “gotta believe this religion and this set of beliefs, because the ECF say such and such” about verses they had no idea what they meant, and you say I have not experienced freedom. Yeah, right.

I suggest that not only do you have no idea what you’re talking about, but that it comes from your frame of reference that you don’t. I certainly am not offended by this kind of thinking, at all.

Jesus really did show by His actions that He was teaching people on the level they were prepared to receive. Thus He helped those “know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” who were prepared to receive the truths He had “hidden in a field.”

It simply goes over some heads. They would rather think He prepared a plan that forced everyone into compliance, using a verse that completely departed from all He had taught by saying “Peter is the rock.”

Anyone who conjectures that that kind of plan would be establishing “freedom” has no idea what they’re talking about as to the use of the word.

 

[Stephen168]

See, I don’t believe Jesus is especially present as you have described. I have read about this, but that doesn’t mean I believe it, nor does it mean I feel I am missing out on anything by not believing it.

It was first described by Christ and has been taught by Christians ever since. Protestants and Mormonism do not have the priesthood authority to allow Christ to be present as he described it. A Catholic goes to Church to be physically closer to God. Mormons would go to their ward to shoot hoops.

 

[Stephen168]

So I emphasize free will choice repeatedly in this forum,…

Joseph Smith excommunicated his Apostles when they did not agree with him. No free will in Mormonism.

 

[ParkerD]

…A Catholic goes to Church to be physically closer to God. .

Stephen,

I understand the words, although not sure if you mean “God the Father” or “Christ, the Son”.

If God the Father, then the inconsistency is in the belief that He is believed to be a Spirit with no physical body and who can be worshiped anywhere (which last part is what I believe, that God the Father can be worshiped anywhere but that He has a physical body), but there would then be no such thing as being “physically closer to God the Father” since He is believed to be only a Spirit.

If to Christ, the Son, then He is not in the church building, so there is an inconsistency in that also. His body is in heaven, where He lives.

 

[Stephen168]

I understand the words, although not sure if you mean “God the Father” or “Christ, the Son”.

Both they are the same being; there is only one God

If to Christ, the Son, then He is not in the church building, so there is an inconsistency in that also. His body is in heaven, where He lives.

Unlike Catholicism, Mormonism does not have the priesthood authority to allow Christ to be present in their Church as Christ described it. A Catholic goes to Church to be physically closer to God. Mormons would go to their ward to shoot hoops, because as you say he is not in your buildings.

 

[ParkerD]

Both they are the same being; there is only one God

…

OK–then what Zaffiroborant said was that God can be worshiped anywhere, and did not put a stipulation about it–so the inconsistency is saying that He is closer in the church than somewhere else.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Unlike Catholicism, Mormonism does not have the priesthood authority to allow Christ to be present in their Church as Christ described it. A Catholic goes to Church to be physically closer to God. Mormons would go to their ward to shoot hoops, because as you say he is not in your buildings.

This is of course a false equivalency. Latter-day Saints go to church to fellowship with other Latter-day Saints, worship God, renew and enter into sacred covenants with Him, study the scriptures, etc. We believe that Jesus is present when we gather in His name. We also believe that in our temples, God is present (temple dedication prayers include invocations of God’s presence inside His house), and are literally houses of the Lord. Your last sentence is not logical.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Cut and pasted from LDS: understanding of infant baptism

I am perplexed about this so-called “spirit world.” Spirits do not have parts and do not occupy space. Joseph Smith teaches that all spirit is matter (D&C 131:7-8). Matter has parts and occupies space.

Since the many gods and all the spirits are material, how can there be a world of “spirits”? Since this “world” is necessarily material, according to J Smith, where is it? There is no “where” to spirits. “Where” means “in what location in space.” Spirits are not in space at all. Can you explain? Here’s a link to the thread were this is discussed:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=574433&highlight=all+spirit+is+matter

I’ll cut and paste your post and my reply there.

Jim Dandy

Jim Dandy, what is the basis for your belief that there is no “where” to spirits? Do you not believe that spirits are in Heaven, and that Jesus Christ bodily ascended to Heaven, implying that Heaven has some sort of “where”/physicality to it? Is not Christ’s body “somewhere”, and that where is supposed to be where the souls of the deceased that are saved currently are?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

I don’t know where you received the impression that I think “Catholics don’t believe in the Incarnation”. I think they do, but I don’t understand the details of how they think of it in detail as to what it means. Why should I try and understand what I perceive are inconsistencies among an entire set of beliefs?
.

That’s what I said Parker you can’t be bothered with trying to understand, it says a lot about you, how you perceive others and why you are here.

 

[ParkerD]

That’s what I said Parker you can’t be bothered with trying to understand, it says a lot about you and how you perceive others.

Z,

Then I will clarify. When I have presented a case of an inconsistency, all I am told is that it is because I don’t understand, or I am given a long dialogue about the Eucharist or about confession or about the Trinity, and the inconsistency remains–so it means I would be left to my own devices to try and figure out how the person on the other end reconciles the inconsistency, and instead of doing that I will agree with them that “I don’t understand.”

The inconsistencies are in the core beliefs, such as what I had tried to point out about “Spirit” and about praying in the church versus praying somewhere else which should mean that there is the same value, the same efficacy, in praying in that somewhere else as in praying in the church.

 

[Stephen168]

This is of course a false equivalency. Latter-day Saints go to church to fellowship with other Latter-day Saints, worship God, renew and enter into sacred covenants with Him, study the scriptures, etc. We believe that Jesus is present when we gather in His name. We also believe that in our temples, God is present (temple dedication prayers include invocations of God’s presence inside His house), and are literally houses of the Lord.

Yes, ParkerD is falsely trying to make Mormon wards equal to Catholic Churches; and as I pointed out, they are not. Christ is present in a Catholic Church whether anyone is there or not. As you said, he is not present in a Mormon ward when it is empty. I’ve said nothing about Mormon temples.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Z,

Then I will clarify. When I have presented a case of an inconsistency, all I am told is that it is because I don’t understand, or I am given a long dialogue about the Eucharist or about confession or about the Trinity, and the inconsistency remains–so it means I would be left to my own devices to try and figure out how the person on the other end reconciles the inconsistency, and instead of doing that I will agree with them that “I don’t understand.”

The inconsistencies are in the core beliefs, such as what I had tried to point out about “Spirit” and about praying in the church versus praying somewhere else which should mean that there is the same value, the same efficacy, in praying in that somewhere else as in praying in the church.

You don’t understand because you don’t try.