All That We Leave Behind

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PrairieMom

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This is a thread I’ve been thinking about for a long time. Reading a couple of other threads, specifically this one forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=416651, made me think of it again. Like the OP in the above-referenced thread, I am also a post-VII child, but am curious about the “old way”.

Several years ago, I stumbled upon this video: youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64 , of Easter Mass narrated by Mgr. Fulton Sheen. It fascinated me. One statement Mgr. Sheen made has resonated with me ever since: (I’m paraphrasing here) When he talks about the cope, he explains how it’s something carried on from the days where the celebrant needed protection from the weather. He goes on to explain how nothing in Mass is “thrown away”, but carries forward, tying us to our past.

When we moved away from the TLM, what did we throw away? Can anyone educate me as to what kinds of practices/traditions/stuff we got rid of? What did we keep?

Thank-you.
 
I am familiar with that video. I grew up watching Abp. Sheen, Bp. Sheen, Msgr. Sheen on his weekly TV program in glorious black and white and later in color. He was very popular in the late 50s and 60s. We used to watch him as a family. I catch him on EWTN every now and again.

What did we lose? Gregorian chant. Sacred motets. Congregational hymns in Latin. Benediction (by in large - only two Benedictions a year at my cathedral parish). Corpus Christi processions (although the Archdiocese of New Orleans has done this for the last two years -Katrina may have had something to do with that). Forty hour devotions. Making frequent Confessions so as not to receive Our Lord unworthily. A sense of that when we entered church, Jesus was present on the altar and we did not open our mouths except in prayer once we entered the sanctuary. The sacrament of Extreme Unction. (There was a article in our newspaper yesterday about how few priests there are to respond today who can visit hospitals much less come to a person dying at home. The article went on to suggest that if you are dying, you need to make a prior appointment with your parish priest). I could go on and on.

I really miss not being able to kneel to receive Our Lord. I am fortunate to reside in a parish where I can receive on the tongue. When I was prepared to make my First Communion, we were taught that we should not profane Our Lord with our hands. When someone at my parish dropped the host in front of me, I signaled Father and he retrieved the host not the EMHC as is proper.
 
I’m also post VII, I saw some of the video. I think post VII is just as good for my soul than pre VII. We kept Jesus, didn’t we. We part take on the Lord Supper. And we understand the Mass just as good, if not better. We also kept the love for our Lord, just as today’s second reading tells us…for we are nothing without love.
God Bless
 
Ralph4454 said:
I’m also post VII, I saw some of the video. I think post VII is just as good for my soul than pre VII. We kept Jesus, didn’t we. We part take on the Lord Supper. And we understand the Mass just as good, if not better. We also kept the love for our Lord, just as today’s second reading tells us…for we are nothing without love.
God Bless
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Here we go again. More myths as in we have a better understanding of the Mass than you dinosaurs before Vatican II. Sheesh! :mad:
 
I am also a post-V2 baby who wonders now what might have been lost. As my understanding of the Eucharist has exploded since I returned to the Church a few years ago, I wonder if we lost an appreciation of the sacrament, of Our Lord’s presence has been lost. The parish to which I currently belong (where my son goes to school) has an adoration chapel, and the pastor demonstrates adoration and teaches his parishoners during his homilies. The parish at which I play the piano is more reverent in their music, but the attitudes toward the Eucharist seem far more lax.

But I can’t comment on whether or not everyone and every parish was “so much better” before V2. My parents were born in 1933, and married in 1958, but they both left the Church for decades after V2. My dad once told me he hated the changes made by V2, but clearly, even being taught and raised in those times did not impress upon him the importance of obedience to the magisterium or the importance of at least weekly mass attendance.

So I don’t have an answer to the OP’s question, but I do think what’s more important is not what we lost, but committing ourselves to living our faith today. Each of us must bring – in abundance – our time, talent, and treasure to our parishes, particularly the treasure of our faith and our love of Christ’s Church. If half the people I hear singing beautifully at mass would join the music ministry even a few times a year, we’d have a full choir singing each and every Sunday! (I’m rather affected by the quality, or lack thereof, of the music at mass :o)

Gertie
 
BrotherRolf,

I feel your pain and frustration. Always have hope because we are getting things turned around. FSSP in our Diocese is about to expand a little and a Dominican Rite is offered about once a month nearby.

Its going to be a long uphill battle. The progressives won’t give up without squacking. Perhaps we will live long enough to see significant change. In God’s time, not ours.

So be it.
 
PrairieMom said:
T

When we moved away from the TLM, what did we throw away? Can anyone educate me as to what kinds of practices/traditions/stuff we got rid of? What did we keep?
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Deleted the following feast days from the New Liturgical calendar:
  • Saint Christopher
  • Saint Valentine
  • Saint Barbara
Suppressed minor (Cleric, Acolyte, Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Sub-deacon) orders in seminaries and created the lay order of permanent deacon.

Suppressed certain vestments in the offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Maniple, Amice, Cincture).

Most priests discontinued the custom of wearing the biretta and the cassock.

Priests discontinued the promotion of certain sacramentals like the scapulars and the Chord of St. Joseph and the Chord of St. Philomena. Previously, it was customary to enroll children and adults in the brown scapular at First Communion.

Certain traditions like the Enthronement of the Sacred Heart in the home fell into disuse.
 
Gertabelle said:
I am also a post-V2 baby who wonders now what might have been lost. As my understanding of the Eucharist has exploded since I returned to the Church a few years ago, I wonder if we lost an appreciation of the sacrament, of Our Lord’s presence has been lost. The parish to which I currently belong (where my son goes to school) has an adoration chapel, and the pastor demonstrates adoration and teaches his parishoners during his homilies. The parish at which I play the piano is more reverent in their music, but the attitudes toward the Eucharist seem far more lax.

But I can’t comment on whether or not everyone and every parish was “so much better” before V2. My parents were born in 1933, and married in 1958, but they both left the Church for decades after V2. My dad once told me he hated the changes made by V2, but clearly, even being taught and raised in those times did not impress upon him the importance of obedience to the magisterium or the importance of at least weekly mass attendance.

So I don’t have an answer to the OP’s question, but I do think what’s more important is not what we lost, but committing ourselves to living our faith today. Each of us must bring – in abundance – our time, talent, and treasure to our parishes, particularly the treasure of our faith and our love of Christ’s Church. If half the people I hear singing beautifully at mass would join the music ministry even a few times a year, we’d have a full choir singing each and every Sunday! (I’m rather affected by the quality, or lack thereof, of the music at mass :o)

Gertie
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It was a very difficult decision for me. Let me share this.

I have made no secret that I despised what happened in the years after Vatican II. I saw my parents and my neighbors reduced to attending the Vigil Mass on Saturday (because it was the most reverent) from attending the “main” Mass at my parish at 10 because of all the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ that went on in the 70s.

I attended Mass in grad school in the mid-70s but I had to go to the 8am Mass to avoid tiger-striped vestments (LSU) and the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks which I make no excuses for. I got married and we had our first child in 1981. We were member of the local geographic parish at the time which was and is a noted reverent NO parish and our first child was baptized there. And then my wife’s father passed away and we had to move to my wife’s home parish to take care of her mother.

That parish was a real “trip” for me. None of the Masses at that parish were free from abuses. It was a “hippie love fest”. I couldn’t stand it and quit going to Mass for over a year. In 1983 a co-worker asked me, “Hey, you are a Catholic and grew up with the Mass in Latin? Would you be interested in singing in the cathedral choir?”. I was and I did for some 20 years until my health declined.

I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to attend a reverent NO cathedral parish. My second child was baptized there and my kids received their sacraments as members of the cathedral parish. In 1984 we made the decision to join the cathedral parish and found out that we had to have permission from our local geographic parish to join the cathedral parish.

I had to go to an interview with the local geographic parish’s pastor and request permission to join the cathedral parish. Nasty interview. Very nasty interview. Shortly thereafter I received a letter in which I was released to join the cathedral parish, I was told that if I was “in danger of death, I will not respond”. I brought the letter to my cathedral pastor who took it, read it , and said “I will take care of this”. I have not looked back.

I am still driving 25 miles one way after all these years. My local geographic parish now has the same priest who was rector at the cathedral parish in 1984. I am hoping that Father will be able to “turn things around”. We’re getting old and driving 25 miles to Mass is taking its toll.

I have no problems with a reverently celebrated NO in the vernacular. I want us to celebrate our heritage. I grew up with the TLM and the Missa Cantata in which the congregation participated almost as much as it does today except in Latin.

We have lost so much in the last 45 years to the point where what we have lost has taken on mythological proportions and yet there are still so many of us alive and “not dead yet”.
 
I relate so much to this. I’m 18 at the moment and in the last year God has been calling me to be more devout, and He led me to wearing the veil and receiving communion kneeling as the Pope gives it, and also to the Latin Mass (not full time… yet :p)

Recently I was at a huge “youth mass” held by the bishop in a conference-setting, and the irreverence for the Eucharist astounded me. I was the only one of my youth group that I know of who kneeled for the consecration. It was so bad that I ran out after Mass to the bathroom to cry, previously I had so much hope for the future and my generation, that we would regain the beatiful reverence to Our Lord in the Eucharist, akin to what is seen in the Latin Mass. And yet here I saw clapping and dancing around during the opening and closing songs, guitar band music at Mass complete with booming bass, and the ugly, disturbing sight of hundreds of teens standing for the consecration because “but we don’t have to!!” and staring me up and down with the veil on and asking “so… is that a shawl thing?”

We have lost the reverence which is SO rightly due to our Loving God, who at Mass is physically with us, right there in the room at our side!! WE, in our irreverence, unduly add to the load of Our Lord’s sorrows by treating Him like some cracker. By being embarrassed to give Him the level of adoration that the woman who washed His feet with her tears and hair did, our hardness of heart takes our faith downwards in dangerous spirals that we all have seen before.

If this comes off as a rant, know that it comes from love. Just as you cannot stand by as your child is being bullied and abused, so those who love Our Lord cannot stand by as He is dishonored and marginalized.
 
ljubim said:
I relate so much to this. I’m 18 at the moment and in the last year God has been calling me to be more devout, and He led me to wearing the veil and receiving communion kneeling as the Pope gives it, and also to the Latin Mass (not full time… yet :p)

Recently I was at a huge “youth mass” held by the bishop in a conference-setting, and the irreverence for the Eucharist astounded me. I was the only one of my youth group that I know of who kneeled for the consecration. It was so bad that I ran out after Mass to the bathroom to cry, previously I had so much hope for the future and my generation, that we would regain the beatiful reverence to Our Lord in the Eucharist, akin to what is seen in the Latin Mass. And yet here I saw clapping and dancing around during the opening and closing songs, guitar band music at Mass complete with booming bass, and the ugly, disturbing sight of hundreds of teens standing for the consecration because “but we don’t have to!!” and staring me up and down with the veil on and asking “so… is that a shawl thing?”

YOU will certainly be part of the solution for bringing your generation back to reverence.
We have lost the reverence which is SO rightly due to our Loving God, who at Mass is physically with us, right there in the room at our side!! WE, in our irreverence, unduly add to the load of Our Lord’s sorrows by treating Him like some cracker. By being embarrassed to give Him the level of adoration that the woman who washed His feet with her tears and hair did, our hardness of heart takes our faith downwards in dangerous spirals that we all have seen before.

If this comes off as a rant, know that it comes from love. Just as you cannot stand by as your child is being bullied and abused, so those who love Our Lord cannot stand by as He is dishonored and marginalized.
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giuseppeTO said:
YOU will certainly be part of the solution for bringing your generation back to reverence.
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I really hope so 😦 We’re all so stubborn - it’s awful. Some of us will stick to our wrong ways like glue. Only prayer can help us now!
 
It gives me hope that you young folks have discovered what has been lost. Rest assured that there are still large numbers of us who are your parents and grandparents age who are rejoicing that we now have a voice. As Father Z says “One brick at a time”.
 
brotherhrolf said:
That parish was a real “trip” for me. None of the Masses at that parish were free from abuses. It was a “hippie love fest”. I couldn’t stand it and quit going to Mass for over a year.
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Oh, I have some semblence of how you feel. Some of my in-laws go to what was their geographical parish (they have since moved, but I think they still go to the same parish). My husband and I went there for a nephew’s baptism. We were shocked. It was clappy, happy, feel-good… something… that vaguely resembling a Catholic liturgy. The priests acted like rock stars. No one knelt during the Consecration (my husband did, I would had if I wasn’t nursing a very cranky infant). I have been to several parishes (we travel frequently) that appear to have very little reverence for our Sacraments, and it all seems to be about the feel-good, be happy, entertain-me attitude.

“Originally Posted by Ralph4454
I’m also post VII, I saw some of the video. I think post VII is just as good for my soul than pre VII. We kept Jesus, didn’t we.”

I don’t disagree. I think some of us, however, have an interest in pre VII that is akin to someone seeking out their cultural/ethnic heritage. Where did we come from? How did we get here? To further illustrate the analogy, I am undoubtably Canadian, and have always considered myself thus. However, my interest and participation on my Métis heritage doesn’t negate or compromise my Canadian identity.

Thank-you other replies. Your responses have been interesting. I wanted to ask another question:

Is there any part of the Catholic Culture that has changed radically since VII? Do we even truly have a “Catholic Culture” anymore? I go to a fairly conservative, reverent parish, and I find that very few live the Catholic lifestyle. Is this common?

Thanks again.
 
Is there any part of the Catholic Culture that has changed radically since VII? Do we even truly have a “Catholic Culture” anymore? I go to a fairly conservative, reverent parish, and I find that very few live the Catholic lifestyle. Is this common?
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I believe that it still exists “underground” and I have great hope for the young people who have exhibited an interest today. I have tried to influence my two sons and was pleasantly surprised, indeed floored, when, on his own, my oldest (now 28) learned how to chant the Pater Noster.

I have hoped and prayed for the last 45 years that we would recover our senses and it seems we have.
 
Don’t forget about the wholesale destruction of religious art. Altars, statues and communion rails were literally tossed into the dumpster. Fortunately, two of the three old churches in my hometown were able to keep most of their old pre-Vatican II altars, statues, etc. Bishop O’Rourke (of the Diocese of Peoria, IL) wanted to “simplify” churches back in the 1970s and the effects of that misguided strategy are everywhere today. For example, the oldest Catholic church in Champaign, IL (1888) is completely devoid of any high altar or statues. Pretty pathetic.
 
thealtonroute said:
Don’t forget about the wholesale destruction of religious art. Altars, statues and communion rails were literally tossed into the dumpster. Fortunately, two of the three old churches in my hometown were able to keep most of their old pre-Vatican II altars, statues, etc. Bishop O’Rourke (of the Diocese of Peoria, IL) wanted to “simplify” churches back in the 1970s and the effects of that misguided strategy are everywhere today. For example, the oldest Catholic church in Champaign, IL (1888) is completely devoid of any high altar or statues. Pretty pathetic.
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Our parish underwent a major restoration, finished just over a year ago.

http://www.staug.ca/sites/restoration/pr-Altar Crucifix.jpg

I saw the restoration of things like communion rails (at the side altars at least), statues, art and most importantly, the relocation of the tabernacle from the side altar to the main altar.

http://www.staug.ca/sites/restoration/pr-Sanctuary View.jpg

It’s very inspiring to walk in there and imagine what the sanctuary was like 100 years ago when it was built!
 
looks pretty good!

Unfortunately the local diocese and pastor want to tear down our old churches and build a new facility out in the country, despite large opposition. The Catholic Church has never been one to value the (name removed by moderator)ut of parishioners, despite the fact that parishioners paid to build and maintain their churches.
 
What a lovely church! Unlike other renovations where the statuary, marble ornamentations were simply destroyed, my cathedral gave them to parishoners and parishoners have been returning them and they are being used around the cathedral. They can’t be brought back to the original altar because the renovation in the mid-60s completely tore the original altar out.
 
What beautiful and touching replies on this thread.

May I make a suggestion to you young people? Stay in your parishes. Don’t leave for a “more reverent” Mass elsewhere like BrotherHRolf and many of us did. Stay in your parishes and FIGHT for your Catholic right to a reverent Mass. Don’t let abuses push you away. Don’t abandon Our Lord! He’s entitled to at least a few friends amid so many enemies. Console Him.

We should have put up more of a fight back in the sixties and seventies. But we really had not much of an idea about what was going on, nor were we well organized. And remember, no internet or EWTN back then!
 
Prairie Mom, what a beautiful Church. How good Our Lord has been to you.
 
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