All we have to do is Love?

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DesertBrother said:
Thank you for posting this. I’m so confused. These ideas can’t be more opposed to one another. Do you have any personal commentary on this?
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Hello DesertBrother,

I am almost afraid to make a comment. It seems easier to simply post the two documents together and the obvious, which you have pointed out, seems to come through on its own.

There are many Catholics who demand that Pope John Paul II and Pope Eugene are saying the exact same thing.

When my mother was a child, 1940s-50s, Catholics believed that all Protestants went to hell. Now days Catholics do not believe that all Protstants go to hell. The problem now is Catholics proving papal infailibilty through this major change in Catholic thought.
 
Steven_Merten said:
Hello DesertBrother,

I am almost afraid to make a comment. It seems easier to simply post the two documents together and the obvious, which you have pointed out, seems to come through on its own.

There are many Catholics who demand that Pope John Paul II and Pope Eugene are saying the exact same thing.

When my mother was a child, 1940s-50s, Catholics believed that all Protestants went to hell. Now days Catholics do not believe that all Protstants go to hell. The problem now is Catholics proving papal infailibilty through this major change in Catholic thought.
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What about this one though? From:

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964)

“The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God’s word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize.”
  1. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6
 
About love
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HOW MANY HAVE PRAYED FOR THE REPOSE OF THE SOUL OF SADDAM HUISSEIN?

He shared with me our common humanity. He was in a position of authority I am not. He did what he did. How many have judged him?

Who has spoken ill of him? How many have said he got what he deserved?

He is a child of Christ, no less than the rest of us. A good loving devotion might be to pray for him. No one is beyond teh redemptive power of Christ.
 
Sixtus said:
HOW MANY HAVE PRAYED FOR THE REPOSE OF THE SOUL OF SADDAM HUISSEIN?

He shared with me our common humanity. He was in a position of authority I am not. He did what he did. How many have judged him?

Who has spoken ill of him? How many have said he got what he deserved?

He is a child of Christ, no less than the rest of us. A good loving devotion might be to pray for him. No one is beyond teh redemptive power of Christ.
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I agree with you. He was robbed of his possible conversion by those bent on revenge.
 
DesertBrother said:
What about this one though? From:

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964)

“The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God’s word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize.”
  1. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6
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Hello DesertBrother,

Are you saying what “the Church now solemnly acknowledges” looks greatly opposite of “No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)"?
 
DesertBrother said:
I agree with you. He was robbed of his possible conversion by those bent on revenge.
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Hello DesertBrother,

Were God commanded stonings in the time of Moses “revenge”? Was God commanding man to take “revenge” on murders when God commanded man to put to death murderers? Why did God command man to put to death sinners?

In the time of the flood, man was so evil and corrupt that God “cut off” {put to death) all mankind except for Noah and his family. God replanted man in hopes of gaining a people who would produce the fruit of love and faith in God. Moses was commanded to “cut off” put to death those who lead the body of people into sin and damnation. Christ commands His Church to anathematize “cut off” and throw into damnation those member of the body of the Church who lead the body of the Church into sin and damnation.

While it is easy for humans to focus only on one person, Saddom, God’s focus is on maintaining the whole body of the Church from being pulled into sin, death and damnation. This is why God calls upon man to put to physical death or spiritual death (cut off) those who lead the body of people into sin, death and damnation.

Please visit Throwing Stones
NAB LEV 20 Penalties for Various Sins.

**The LORD said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people: for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.”****NAB MAT 18:5 **

Jesus is speaking.
"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna. NAB MAT 5:29 Occasions of Impurity.

Jesus is speaking.
If your right eye is your trouble, gouge it out and throw it away! Better you lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna. Again if your right hand is your trouble, cut it off and throw it away! Better to lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna."
**NAB NUM 15:30 **

"But anyone who sins defiantly, whether he be a native or and alien, insults the LORD, and shall be cut off from among his people. Since he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, he must be cut off. He has only himself to blame." The Sabbath-breaker. While the Israelites were in the desert,** a man was discovered gathering wood on the sabbath day**. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."
 
Steven_Merten said:
Hello DesertBrother,

Are you saying what “the Church now solemnly acknowledges” looks greatly opposite of “No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)"?
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I know. I’m really feeling confused. I’m afraid to go any further with this thread for the reasons you listed about “leading little ones astray”. Since these things are over my head, I shouldn’t be discussing them publically until I have all the information.
 
Steven_Merten said:
While it is easy for humans to focus only on one person, Saddom, God’s focus is on maintaining the whole body of the Church from being pulled into sin, death and damnation. This is why God calls upon man to put to physical death or spiritual death (cut off) those who lead the body of people into sin, death and damnation.
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I see what you’re saying. I’ve just been taught for so long to love all men as Christ loves all men.
 
DesertBrother said:
I know. I’m really feeling confused. I’m afraid to go any further with this thread for the reasons you listed about “leading little ones astray”. Since these things are over my head, I shouldn’t be discussing them publically until I have all the information.
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Hello DesertBrother,

I am not one of those who believes we should all sit around silent in spirtual death fear of saying something wrong.

Your statment about Saddam is a statment felt by many Catholics. It is good to bring this thought out into discussion. Please do not be afraid to discuss these things.

I am sure that a great many Protestants of Pope Eugene’s day would have cherished the modern opportunity of internet CAF (Catholic Answers Forum) to discuss just what Pope Eugene meant by “no salvation outside the Church”. Had there been CAF internet, in the 1400s, I am sure that someone, probubly a Protestant, would have brought up a concept similiar to Pope John Paul II’s, much sooner.

I think that the whole concept of CAF is that discussion brings us all closer to God.
 
Steven_Merten said:
Hello DesertBrother,

I am not one of those who believes we should all sit around silent in spirtual death fear of saying something wrong.

Your statment about Saddam is a statment felt by many Catholics. It is good to bring this thought out into discussion. Please do not be afraid to discuss these things.

I am sure that a great many Protestants of Pope Eugene’s day would have cherished the modern opportunity of internet CAF (Catholic Answers Forum) to discuss just what Pope Eugene meant by “no salvation outside the Church”. Had there been CAF internet, in the 1400s, I am sure that someone, probubly a Protestant, would have brought up a concept similiar to Pope John Paul II’s, much sooner.

I think that the whole concept of CAF is that discussion brings us all closer to God.
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I would hope it would bring us all closer to God, but I also fear driving others on the fence further away by my own potentially ignorant statements.

It’s possible I’ve been raised to be politically correct at the expense of the Truth. If this is the case, I want and need to change. The Truth of Christ comes first.
 
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Steven_Merten:
You mind if I send you a PM? It’s something related but would be off-topic.
 
Hey Mark,

Good responses you are getting so far. Let me ask you a question.

**Does love require us to hate? :confused: **

What are your thoughts?

John
 
johnq said:
Hey Mark,

Good responses you are getting so far. Let me ask you a question.

**Does love require us to hate? :confused: **

What are your thoughts?

John
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I know this is probably not what you were getting at, but couldn’t resist.

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple” Luke 14:26
 
Love never requires us to hate people. It may require us to hate sins. It may require us to “hate” them in that Biblical sense that was noted above – ie, love God who is the Truth more than them.
There may be times when, say, love for defending your children might require you to hurt or kill someone attacking them.

But even if you have to fight someone, or hurt someone, or kill someone, you should try not to hate them. Righteous anger is one thing, but hate is quite another.

As for all that stuff above… well, we have to worry about people’s salvation and want to tell them about the Truth. We can’t say it doesn’t matter. OTOH, we aren’t God and we don’t know everything about the state of people’s souls, so we can’t assume people are going to Hell, either. (Judge not lest ye be judged, remember?) We have it on reliable authority that there is going to be quite a bit of getting into Heaven and staying outside weeping and gnashing of teeth in unexpected quarters, and we also have it on authority that if we don’t warn people when they’re sinning, the sin might count on us! So basically, Jesus doesn’t want us to get too comfortable about the fate of non-Christians, but He also wants us to trust Him and His Divine Mercy.

So to love, not sin, and be Catholic is probably still your best plan. 🙂
 
Mintaka said:
Love never requires us to hate people. It may require us to hate sins. It may require us to “hate” them in that Biblical sense that was noted above – ie, love God who is the Truth more than them.
There may be times when, say, love for defending your children might require you to hurt or kill someone attacking them.

But even if you have to fight someone, or hurt someone, or kill someone, you should try not to hate them. Righteous anger is one thing, but hate is quite another.

As for all that stuff above… well, we have to worry about people’s salvation and want to tell them about the Truth. We can’t say it doesn’t matter. OTOH, we aren’t God and we don’t know everything about the state of people’s souls, so we can’t assume people are going to Hell, either. (Judge not lest ye be judged, remember?) We have it on reliable authority that there is going to be quite a bit of getting into Heaven and staying outside weeping and gnashing of teeth in unexpected quarters, and we also have it on authority that if we don’t warn people when they’re sinning, the sin might count on us! So basically, Jesus doesn’t want us to get too comfortable about the fate of non-Christians, but He also wants us to trust Him and His Divine Mercy.

So to love, not sin, and be Catholic is probably still your best plan. 🙂
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That about sums it up. Well said.

:yup:
 
johnq said:
Hey Mark,

Good responses you are getting so far. Let me ask you a question.

**Does love require us to hate? :confused: **

What are your thoughts?

John
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According to Latin Vulgate, Luke 14:26 means:

“Hate not, etc. . .The law of Christ does not allow us to hate even our enemies, much less our parents: but the meaning of the text is, that we must be in that disposition of soul, as to be willing to renounce, and part with every thing, how near or dear soever it may be to us, that would keep us from following Christ.”
 
Anything that interferes your relationship with God should be cast away right? I mean, the only one that wants your relationship with God destroyed is Satan right? 🙂
 
johnq said:
Hey Mark,

Good responses you are getting so far. Let me ask you a question.

**Does love require us to hate? :confused: **

What are your thoughts?

John
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Hello John,

Do you understand that God’s commandments teach us what love and hate are?

INT 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.**NAB JOH 15:22 **

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.”
NAB SIR 28:7

**Think of the commandments, hate not your neighbor;**NAB DEU 5:9

“. . . you shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
NAB EXO 20:5

“. . . you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
 
Thanks for the quotes Steven. I thought Mintaka explained it very well.

Here are a couple of verses I had in mind. Steven took a couple of them.

Proverbs 6:16
There are six things which the LORD hates,Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

Proverbs 8:13
"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverted mouth, I hate.

Proverbs 13:5
A righteous man hates falsehood,But a wicked man acts disgustingly and shamefully.

In order to love fully, we must fully hate what seperates us from God which is evil (sin).
 
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