All will be saved

[notforgotten]

1 Corinthians 15:19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

 

[teresa63]

teresa63:

Please note that my statement of “not all will be saved” is not the same as your statement above that “all will not be saved.”

“not all will be saved” = “all will not be saved"
In what respect are the above statements not equal?

It may be just a matter of semantics, but the two statements are not equal.

Let’s use an analogy. Instead of designating persons as either “saved” or “not saved” we will use another clear-cut dichotomy of…whether or not all people will (or will not) go to the dentist tomorrow.

Saying that “not all will be going to the dentist tomorrow” is not the same as saying “all will not be going to the dentist tomorrow.”

 

[Lovinglight]

The teachings of the Church are moral absolutes.

There will be many good ppl going to hell by choices they make regarding issues of grave matter/knowledge/consent of will.

 

[o_mlly]

It may be just a matter of semantics, but the two statements are not equal.

I don’t see a difference. One may negate the verb or modify the subject; the meaning is the same. But that is beside the point which is: what does the Church teach.

The Church does not teach either construction: that “all will not be saved” or that “not all will be saved.”

 

[Latin]

God bless you Steve and Lovinglight and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Thank you for your post Steve, I felt I obliged to give you an answer, this is a post to Lovinglight as well.
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ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE AND THE HIGHEST LEVEL TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:
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HEAVEN IS GOD’S MERCIFUL GRACE AND NO ONE CAN REFUSE IT AND EVERYONE TO WHOSOEVER GOD OFFER HEAVEN FREELY AND IRREVOCABLE RECEIVE IT. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent. + The Grace of God’s Call (CCCS 1996-1998)
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most

What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. End quote.

Meaning, man does NOTHING and can do NOTHING to enter the state of Initial Justification. – COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
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The Grace of God’s Call (CCCS 1996-1998)
… This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.

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Continue
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[Latin]

Continuation

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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
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John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,
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God’s call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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GOD’S PROTECTION OF THE SALVATION OF HIS CHILDREN/ELECT

a. Our cooperation with the grace of God is PRODUCED (not just enabled) by God’s grace/God’s operation.
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b. God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance is an Eternal Protection of our salvation (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.), the receivers of this God’s grace CAN NEVER lose their salvation. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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DISCLAIMER
The above words are NOT MY WORDS, it is the Words of the Scripture and the HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church.

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God bless you Steve and Lovinglight and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[o_mlly]

The Church does not teach either construction: that “all will not be saved” or that “not all will be saved.”

Perhaps changing from a passive voice to an active voice will clarify. Since the economy of salvation is God’s work, restating in the active voice would be: God will not save all or God cannot save all. The Catholic church does not teach either formulation as matters of faith.

 

[steve-b]

o_mlly:

The Church does not teach either construction: that “all will not be saved” or that “not all will be saved.”

Perhaps changing from a passive voice to an active voice will clarify. Since the economy of salvation is God’s work, restating in the active voice would be: God will not save all or God cannot save all. The Catholic church does not teach either formulation as matters of faith.

Re: the topic of the thread

The Church teaches

all will be saved , Apocatastasis, Universalism, = anathama, condemned thinking, heresy, for 1500 years since the ecumenical council of Constantinople.

From: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

"the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.

… It reappears at the Reformation in the writings of Denk (d. 1527), and Harnack has not hesitated to assert that nearly all the Reformers were apocatastasists at heart, and that it accounts for their aversion to the traditional teaching concerning the sacraments (Dogmengeschichte, III, 661). The doctrine of apokatastasis viewed as a belief in a universal salvation is found among the Anabaptists, the Moravian Brethren, the Christadelphians, among rationalistic Protestants, and finally among the professed Universalists. …

 

[o_mlly]

The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.

Suggest you look up “heterodox.”

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.

Suggest you look up “heterodox.”

okay, heterodox - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

now Note: the synonyms

Other terms used in the article I used http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm was anathema, & condemned, etc.

And let’s not forget we’re using this in a religious meaning

 

[teresa63]

teresa63:

It may be just a matter of semantics, but the two statements are not equal.

I don’t see a difference. One may negate the verb or modify the subject; the meaning is the same. But that is beside the point which is: what does the Church teach.

The Church does not teach either construction: that “all will not be saved” or that “not all will be saved.”

God does, and the Church understands this. It’s called the “sensus fidei/fidelium”

In the Catholic Church, we believe the words of Jesus Christ; and there should be no conflict between the Magisterium and the Word—the Wisdom—of God. In His Own Words, He has revealed to us than not all will be saved.

Jesus tells us that there are “weeds among the wheat” that will be separated out at the final harvest; that there are goats among the sheep that will be separated from Him at the end; that there are branches on the True Vine that will be cut off and burned on the last day. Sunday’s Gospel reading, a parable told by Christ Himself, tells of the foolish maidens caught unprepared when the Bridegroom come. They missed His arrival and the banquet door was…shut. And these are just a few examples.

The Catholic Church regards both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as revelation from God; and this “Deposit of Faith” is protected and taught by the Magisterium. However, the Magisterium doesn’t supersede Scripture, and especially not the Gospels of Jesus Christ. So it doesn’t matter whether the Catechism speaks the precise words you say or not, the Word of God has made it clear that there is good and evil, light and darkness…and heaven and hell.

 

[Lovinglight]

Thnk u for the blessing…God bless u 2♡

 

[Latin]

o_mlly:

The Church does not teach either construction: that “all will not be saved” or that “not all will be saved.”

Perhaps changing from a passive voice to an active voice will clarify. Since the economy of salvation is God’s work, restating in the active voice would be: God will not save all or God cannot save all. The Catholic church does not teach either formulation as matters of faith.

God bless you O_mlly and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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God’s will is to SAVE ALL. – 2 Pet. 3:8-9; 1 Tim.2:4, I believe with all my heart, God has what it takes to save everyone and to make His Eternal Design/Plan which is His Will a reality, in the same way as He has already done it in Nineveh, promised the worse and He has done the best. – This is the pattern the way God works and saves all.
First promise hell to pay attention, then saves all. – Can be the Will of God heresy?
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Matt.19:28; NIV
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the RENEWAL OF ALL THINGS, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10.
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Acts 3:21;
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to RESTORE EVERYTHING, as he PROMISED long ago through his holy prophets.
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Eph.1:9-11; He made known to us the mystery of his will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ,

1. to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment—to bring unity to ALL THINGS in heaven and on earth in Christ.
2. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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605 ἀποκατάστασις

Phonetic
ap-ok-at-as’-tas-is
Part of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine 1:389,65

Definition [ Thayer’s | Strong’s ]
Thayer’s Definition

1. restoration
a. of a true theocracy
b. of the perfect state before the fall
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Rom.8:21;
The creation itself will be LIBERATED FROM ITS BONDAGE TO DECAY and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
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Dan.2:44;
In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a KINGDOM that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people.
It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
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Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
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CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to COME DOWN from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
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Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms UNDER HEAVEN will be handed over to the holy people (Bride of Christ/Church) of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him. In the brackets added.
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Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.

They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
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THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST

Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF HEAVEN from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF HEAVEN from God.

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth (Bride of Christ) will bring their splendor into it. In the brackets added.

26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
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As far as I know, God has given to no one the mandate to hide His Word.
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God bless you O_mlly and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[o_mlly]

And let’s not forget we’re using this in a religious meaning

More precisely, we are using the word “heterodoxy” in the Catholic sense.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Heterodoxy
Heterodoxy in the Roman Catholic Church refers to views that differ from Church tradition, but retain sufficient faithfulness to the original doctrine to avoid heresy.

 

[o_mlly]

God does, and the Church understands this. It’s called the “sensus fidei/fidelium”

Thank you for your personal interpretations. However, the first mark of Christ’s Church is that she is “One” in faith. Your personal interpretations are permitted, if, and only if, they do not contradict magisterial teachings. Such personal revelations are, of course, non-binding on others and if taught to others being formed in the faith must be identified as personal opinions and not magisterial teaching.

 

[o_mlly]

However, the Magisterium doesn’t supersede Scripture, and especially not the Gospels of Jesus Christ. So it doesn’t matter whether the Catechism speaks the precise words you say or not, the Word of God has made it clear that there is good and evil, light and darkness…and heaven and hell.

I pray that the above dismissal of both the catechism and the magisterium is not taught to our Catholic children. I see no difference in the above false claim to Luther’s “Sola Scriptura.”

 

[Cthompson]

This is why we need a thousand more inquisitions.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

And let’s not forget we’re using this in a religious meaning

More precisely, we are using the word “heterodoxy” in the Catholic sense.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Heterodoxy
Heterodoxy in the Roman Catholic Church refers to views that differ from Church tradition, but retain sufficient faithfulness to the original doctrine to avoid heresy.

I used a secular source to show how secular sources use terms. Then I gave the Catholic source. THEY DIFFER.
note when it comes to the specific word apocatastasis, (universalist salvation, all will be saved) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm note: anathema, & condemned, & heresy & heterodox are used in the same context. The Ecumenical council condemned apocatastasis. Do you see that? It’s not just a differing point of view. It’s heterodox, it’s condemned It’s anathema It’s heresy.

Since the Council is addressing the Church, it is addressing the baptized. Meaning that anyone baptized, and going contrary to the Church teaching on a truth, is in heresy.

"the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.

… It reappears at the Reformation in the writings of Denk (d. 1527), and Harnack has not hesitated to assert that nearly all the Reformers were apocatastasists at heart, and that it accounts for their aversion to the traditional teaching concerning the sacraments (Dogmengeschichte, III, 661). The doctrine of apokatastasis viewed as a belief in a universal salvation is found among the Anabaptists, the Moravian Brethren, the Christadelphians, among rationalistic Protestants, and finally among the professed Universalists. …"

From the Catholic dictionary by Fr John Hardin
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Heresies_Heretics/Heresies_Heretics_003.htm

Heresy is defined as
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it."Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

 

[teresa63]

teresa63:

God does, and the Church understands this. It’s called the “sensus fidei/fidelium”

Thank you for your personal interpretations. However, the first mark of Christ’s Church is that she is “One” in faith. Your personal interpretations are permitted, if, and only if, they do not contradict magisterial teachings. Such personal revelations are, of course, non-binding on others and if taught to others being formed in the faith must be identified as personal opinions and not magisterial teaching.

I’ve already informed you in an earlier post that I have magisterial approval. I’m certified by a regional diocese/state.

How are you qualified to judge whether another poster is giving “personal interpretation” or “opinion” or “magisterial teaching”?