Allah causes death?

[hlgomez]

I know for sure that i did not have a hand in the “death” of Jesus peace be upon him. Did you? What i am telling you is DEATH, like life, is an active process. Some being gives us life and some being takes it away…it just doesnt dissapear. Who is that being that took life away from Jesus Christ?

Unless you acknowlegde that your sins have a participation of the death of our Lord, you will never enter into eternal rest. It is our sins that lead to the crucifixion of Jesus, not because of the fault of the Jews alone.

Death was not part in the perfect plan of God for mankind. It’s because Adam’s sins that death came into the world, and thru one man’s righteousness, Jesus Christ, that all are to be made alive again.

It is our sins that took the life of Jesus. These sins which has the consequence of death, God Incarnate took upon himself. So that by His dying, He destroyed our death; and by His rising from the dead, He restored our life.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

You have tried to give Satan power that he does not have.

Thank you, yet again, for increasing my faith in Islam and may God guide you before He takes you from this earth.

Faith101,

Thanks be to God that He endowed upon me so much patience in explaining to you things that the Holy Catholic Church professes and believes. I will continue to explain to you things that you still don’t understand, and pray that God enlightens your heart in understanding things that He revealed to the Church.

And for this I will continue to give you a free catechesis, not from me, but from the Holy Father Pope John Paul II, on his catechesis on the angels.

And I say: …permit us to clarify the true faith of the Church against those who pervert it by exaggerating the importance of the devil, or *by denying or minimizing his malevolent power. *

In the Old Testament, the narrative of the fail of man as related in the Book of Genesis, contains a reference to an attitude of antagonism which Satan wishes to communicate to man in order to lead him to sin (Gen 3:5). In the Book of Job too, we read that Satan seeks to generate rebellion in the person who is suffering (cf. Job 1:11; 2:5-7). In the Book of Wisdom (cf. Wis2:24),*** Satan is presented as the artisan of death, which has entered man’s history along with sin. ***

In the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Church teaches that the devil (or Satan) and the other demons “were created good by God but have become evil by their own will”. In fact, we read in the Letter of St. Jude: " . . . the angels who did not keep their dignity, but left their own dwelling, are kept by the Lord in eternal chains in the darkness, for the judgement of the great day" (Jude 6).

Similarly, in the second Letter of St. Peter, we hear of “angels who have sinned” and whom God “did not spare, but… cast in the gloomy abysses of hell, reserving them for the judgement” (2 Pet 2:4). It is clear that if God “does not forgive” the sin of the angels, this is because they remain in their sin, because they are eternally “in the chains”* of the choice that they made at the beginning*, rejecting God, against the truth of the supreme and definitive Good that is God himself. It is in this sense that St. John writes that "the devil has been a sinner from the beginning…" (Jn 3:8). And he has been a murderer “from the beginning”, and “has not persevered in the truth, because there is no truth in him” (Jn 8:44).

continued…

 

[hlgomez]

As the result of the sin of our first parents, this fallen angel has acquired *dominion over man to a certain extent. *This is the doctrine that has been constantly professed and proclaimed by the Church, and which the Council of Trent confirmed in its treatise on original sin (cf. DS 1511): it finds a dramatic expression in the liturgy of baptism, when the catechumen is asked to renounce the devil and all his empty promises.

In Sacred Scripture we find various indications of this influence on man and on the dispositions of his spirit (and of his body). In the Bible, Satan is called “the prince of the world” (cf Jn 12:31; 14:30; 16:11), and even “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4:4). We find many other names that describe his nefarious relationship with man: “Beelzebul” or “Belial”, “* unclean spirit*”: “tempter”, “evil one” and even “Antichrist” (1 Jn 4:3). He is compared to a “lion” (1 Pet 5:8), to a “dragon” (in Revelation) and to a “serpent” (Gen 3). Very frequently, he is designated by the name “devil”: from the Greek diaballein (hence diabolos), which means: to “cause destruction, to divide, to calumniate, to deceive”. In truth, all this takes place from the beginning through the working of the evil spirit who is presented by Sacred Scripture as a person, while it is declared that he is not alone: “there are many of us” as the devils cry out to Jesus in the region of the Gerasenes (Mk 5:9); and Jesus, speaking of the future judgment, speaks of “the devil and his angels” (cf. Mt 25:41).

According to Sacred Scripture, and especially the New Testament, the dominion and the influence of Satan and of the other evil spirits embraces all the world. We may think of Christ’s parable about the field (the world), about the good seed and the bad seed that the devil sows in the midst of the wheat, seeking to snatch away from hearts the good that has been "sown"in them (cf. Mt 13:38-39). We may think of the numerous exhortations to vigilance (cf. Mt 26:41; 1 Pet 5:8), to prayer and fasting (cf. Mt 17:21). We may think of the strong statement made by the Lord: “This kind of demon cannot be cast out by any other means than prayer” (Mk 9:29). The action of Satan consists primarily in tempting men to evil, by influencing their imaginations and higher faculties, to turn them away from the law of God. Satan even tempts Jesus (cf. Lk 4:3-13), in the extreme attempt to thwart what is demanded by the economy of salvation, as this has been pre-ordained by God.

continued…

 

[hlgomez]

It is possible that in certain cases the evil spirit goes so far as to exercise his influence not only on material things, but even on man’s body so that one can speak of “diabolical possession” (cf. Mk 5:2-9). It is not always easy to discern the preternatural factor operative in these cases, and the Church does not lightly support the tendency to attribute many things to the direct action of the devil; but in principle it cannot be denied that Satan can go to this extreme manifestation ***of his superiority, in his will to harm and lead to evil. ***

To conclude, we must add that the impressive words of the Apostle John, "The whole world lies under the power of the evil one" (1 Jn 5:19), allude also to the presence of Satan in the history of humanity, a presence which becomes all the more acute when man and society depart from God. The influence of the evil spirit can conceal itself in a more profound and effective way: it is in his “interests” to make himself unknown. Satan has the skill in the world to induce people to deny his existence in the name of rationalism and of every other system of thought which seeks all possible means to avoid recognizing his activity. This, however, does not signify the elimination of man’s free will and responsibility, and even less the frustration of the saving action of Christ. It is, rather, a case of conflict between the dark powers of evil and the powers of redemption. The words that Jesus addressed to Peter at the beginning of the Passion are eloquent in this context: “… Simon, behold, Satan has sought to sift you like wheat: but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail” (Lk 22:31).

This helps us understand how Jesus, in the prayer that he taught us, the “Our Father”, that is, the prayer of the Kingdom of God, terminates almost brusquely, unlike so many other prayers of his era, by reminding us of our condition as people exposed to the snares of evil and of the evil one. The Christian, appealing to the Father with the Spirit of Jesus and invoking his Kingdom, cries with the power of faith.*** Let us not succumb to temptation, free us from evil, from the evil one.*** 0 Lord, let us not fall into the infidelity to which we are seduced by the one who has been unfaithful from the beginning.

God bless you and may he give you eternal life.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Faith101 and Preacher,

I have an additional catechesis from the Holy Father Pope John Paul II, not only for Christians, but for all muslims on this thread, in order for us not to win a debate, but for us to understand more clearly the teachings of the Church in this particular subject:

Our catechese on God, the Creator of the things “that are unseen”, have brought fresh light and strength to our faith concerning the truth about the evil one, or Satan; he is certainly not willed by God, who is supreme Love and Holiness, and whose wise and strong Providence knows how to guide our existence to victory over the prince of darkness. The Church’s faith, in fact, teaches us that the power of Satan is not infinite. He is only a creature - powerful, in that he is pure spirit, but nevertheless always a creature, with the limits proper to creatures, subordinated to the will and dominion of God. If Satan is at work in the world because of his hatred of God and of his Kingdom, this is permitted by Divine Providence which directs the history of man and of the world with power and goodness (fortiter et suaviter ). It is certainly true that Satan’s action causes much damage, both of a spiritual kind and also indirectly of a material kind, to individuals and to society, but he is not able ultimately to neutralize the definitive end towards which man and all creation tend, the Good. He cannot block the construction of the Kingdom of God, in which at the end there will be the full realization of the righteousness and the love of the Father for the creatures who are eternally “predestined” in Jesus Christ, his Son and Word. Indeed, we can say with St. Paul that the work of the evil one cooperates for the good (cf. Rom 8:28) and that it helps to build up the glory of the “chosen” ones (cf. 2 Tim 2:10).

Thus, the whole history of humanity can be considered as serving total salvation which means the victory of Christ over the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). “You shall bow down only before the Lord your God, you shall adore him alone” (Lk 4:8), says Christ eternally to Satan. At a dramatic moment of his ministry, when he was openly accused of casting out the demons because of his alliance with Beelzebul, the chief of the demons, Jesus replied with these words that are at once severe and comforting. “Every kingdom that is divided falls into ruins, and no city or family that is divided can stand upright. Now if Satan drives out Satan, then he is divided in himself. How then can his kingdom stand upright?.. And if it is by the power of the Spirit of God that I cast out the demons, then it is certain that the Kingdom of God has come among you” (Mt 12:26-26, 28). “When a strong man, well armed, guards his palace, all his goods are secure. But if one stronger than he comes and overpowers him, he takes away the armour in which he trusted, and divides his spoils” (Lk 11:21-22). The words which Christ speaks about the tempter find their historical fulfilment in the cross and resurrection of the Redeemer. As we read in the Letter to the Hebrews, Christ became a sharer in human nature even to the cross “in order to reduce to powerlessness, by means of death, the one who has the power over death, that is, the devil… and thus to free those who… were held in slavery” (Heb 2:14-15). This is the great certainty of the Christian faith: “the prince of this world has been judged” (Jn 16:11); “the Son of God has appeared, in order to destroy the works of the devil” (1 Jn 3:8), as St. John bears witness. It is therefore the crucified and risen *Christ *who has revealed himself as that “stronger one” who has overpowered “the strong man”, the devil, and has cast him down from his throne.

 

[hlgomez]

The Church shares in Christ’s victory over the devil, for Christ has given to his disciples the power to cast out demons (cf. Mt 10:1 and parallels; Mk 16:17). The Church uses this victorious power through faith in Christ and prayer (cf. Mk 9:29; Mt 17:19ff.), which in particular cases can take the form of exorcism.

It is to this historical phase of the victory of Christ that the announcement and the beginning of the final victory, the Parousia, belongs: this is the second and definitive coming of Christ at the close of history, and it is towards this that the life of the Christian is orientated. Even if it is true that earthly history continues to unfold under the influence of “that spirit who now is at work in rebellious men”, as St. Paul says (Eph 2:2), believers know that they have been called to struggle for the definitive triumph of the Good. “for our battle is not against creatures made of blood and of flesh, but against the Principalities and Powers, against those who hold dominion over this world of darkness, against the spirits of evil that dwell in the heavenly places” (Eph 6:12).

As the end of the struggle gradually draws nearer, it becomes in a certain sense ever more violent, as Revelation, the last book of the New Testament, shows in a special emphasis (cf. Rev 12:7-9). But it is precisely this book that emphasizes the certainty that is given to us by all of divine Revelation, that the struggle will finish with the definitive victory of the good. In this victory, which is contained in anticipation in the paschal mystery of Christ, there will be the definitive fulfilment of the first announcement in the Book of Genesis, which is significantly called the Proto-Evangelium, when God admonishes the serpent: “I will put enmity between you and the woman” (Gen 3:15). In this definitive phase, God will complete the mystery of his fatherly Providence and “will set free from the power of darkness” those whom he has eternally “predestined in Christ” and will “bring them over into the kingdom of his beloved Son” (cf. Col 1:13-14). Then the Son will subject even the whole universe to the Father, so that “God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28).

In a progressive and organic way, we have been able to admire, struck dumb with wonder, the great mystery of the intelligence and love of God, in his action of creation, directed to the cosmos, to the human person, and to the world of pure spirits. We have considered the Trinitarian origin of this action and its wise orientation towards the life of man who is truly the “image of God”, called in his turn to rediscover fully his own dignity in the contemplation of the glory of God. We have been enlightened about one of the greatest problems that perturb man and characterize his search for truth: the problem of suffering and of evil. At the root, there is no mistaken or wicked decision by God, rather his choice - and in a certain manner the risk he has undertaken - of creating us free, in order to have us as friends. Evil too has been born of liberty. But God does not give up, and he predestines us with his transcendent wisdom to be his children in Christ, directing all with strength and sweetness, so that the good may not be overcome by evil.
We must now let ourselves be guided by Divine Revelation in our exploration of the other mysteries of our salvation. We have now received a truth which must be profoundly important for every Christian: that there are *pure spirits *, creatures of God, initially all good and then, through a choice of sin, irreducibly separated into angels of light and angels of darkness. And while the existence of the wicked angels requires of us that we be watchful so as not to yield to their empty promises, we are certain that the victorious power of Christ the Redeemer enfolds our lives, so that we ourselves may overcome these spirits.

In this, we are powerfully helped by the good angels, messengers of God’s love, to whom, taught by the tradition of the Church, we address our prayer: “Angel of God, who are my guardian, enlighten, guard, govern and guide me, who have been entrusted to you by the heavenly goodness. Amen”.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

wow. You think God has power over death b/c He died? Glory be to God who is above all that you describe!

A misunderstanding. Rather, God who became man showed his power over death by becoming subjected to death (thru his assumed human flesh). His Divinity didn’t die. How many times are you confusing this?

You know, when a Muslim hears that another person has died they are supposed to say “indeed we belong to Allah and indeed to Him is our return” We dont say “oh that darn devil has taken away my friend”

You don’t know where that person goes when he dies. But one thing is sure-- It’s either he goes to heaven with God or to hell with the devil.

There is no power nor might save for God alone.

Amen.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Death still occurs. Who is responsible for it? You are not answering the question.

Yes, death still occurs, BUT there is already hope for eternal life because Jesus has shown and triumph over death.

I have been answering you so many times who is responsible and author of death–the person is Satan.

**Hebrews 2:14-15: **

**Now since the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death had been subject to slavery all their life. **

Read all my posts about the catechesis on the angels. You will learn more there about the angels that you can’t get in the Quran.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Satan is part of creatures called Jinn. Jinn like mankind have free will. Satan used his free will to think that he is better than Adam and disobeyed God. That’s it!

I don’t know if jinn and spirits are the same in essence of their being. If jinn is defined as pure spirit, then I will agree on your use of the term to describe angels. Angel is only the name of their office, their nature is pure spirits.

Now, what you described above is partly correct. It is not exactly known, however, how Satan sinned. But one thing is sure, it was his pride that lead to his downfall. He wanted to become god.

Now, with regards to his downfall, it is surely not God who made him fall into sin. This sin of the formerly good angels created in themselves (not God) their eternal and irrevocable decision to be separated from God, hence eternal death. Who causes this death? The answer is the angels themselves and not God.

Pio

 

[Faith101]

A misunderstanding. Rather, God who became man

showed his power over death by becoming subjected to death (thru his assumed human flesh). His Divinity didn’t die. How many times are you confusing this?

if it was clear, i wouldnt be confused. You believe Jesus died…who took his life?

You don’t know where that person goes when he dies. But one thing is sure-- It’s either he goes to heaven with God or to hell with the devil.

everyone has to go back to God for judgment. Dont you believe this?

i havent read everything you posted, it was a too long.

You believe that Satan has the power to kill you, i do not. That power lies with the All-powerful, GOD alone. So thats the difference. I’ll stick with my belief

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

You believe that Satan has the power to kill you, i do not. That power lies with the All-powerful, GOD alone. So thats the difference. I’ll stick with my belief

Satan is very powerful too, he does have the power to destroy us.

However if we turn to God, He will protect us from Satan and spiritual death.

Sins cause us to die a spiritual death.

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

Satan is very powerful too, he does have the power to destroy us.

However if we turn to God, He will protect us from Satan and spiritual death.

Sins cause us to die a spiritual death.

who causes us to die a physical death. THis is what this thread is talking about

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

who causes us to die a physical death. THis is what this thread is talking about

I believe that may be Satan, for after we were cast out of Eden, things changed for us, but we do not know, therefore we can only sumise this.

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

I believe that may be Satan, for after we were cast out of Eden, things changed for us, but we do not know, therefore we can only sumise this.

i believe you guys gotta call a christian meeting 911 and get the basic beliefs straightend out.

Seems like the concept is confusing for Christians too

Alhamdulilah for Islam

 

[fatuma]

So, God’s creation killed God because that is what you are saying when you say that your (I know mine didn’t) sins killed God.
In Islam we believe that we have no effect on God. Every Good we do has no effect on God and every evil we do has no effect on God.

wa salam

 

[hlgomez]

who causes us to die a physical death. THis is what this thread is talking about

I’ve been answering your questions so many times. I don’t know if you are really reading my posts.

READ IT.

Pio

So, God’s creation killed God because that is what you are saying when you say that your (I know mine didn’t) sins killed God.

If you still doesn’t acknowledge that your sins is part of Isa’s giving his life for you, then you still remain in your sins.

In Islam we believe that we have no effect on God. Every Good we do has no effect on God and every evil we do has no effect on God.

Granting that what you are saying is true, then why does God requires justice to be carried out against those who offended Him, both angels and humans?

Glory be to Isa ibnu Allah!

Pio

 

[Faith101]

I’ve been answering your questions so many times. I don’t know if you are really reading my posts.

READ IT.

you said the devil. OK, that’s your belief. I believe that ALL power rests with GOD ALONE.

If you still doesn’t acknowledge that your sins is part of Isa’s giving his life for you, then you still remain in your sins.

Thank God all mighty that He doesnt require the brutal death of an innocent human being to forgive my sins. Islam is truly beautiful.

Granting that what you are saying is true, then why does God requires justice to be carried out against those who offended

Him, both angels and humans?

God is the Most Just

Glory be to Isa ibnu Allah!

Isa 'ABDU Allah! Praise Allah, He is above what you describe.

 

[hlgomez]

you said the devil. OK, that’s your belief. I believe that ALL power rests with GOD ALONE.

Faith101,

For the sake of your ignorance, I’ll give you one more chance and from here on, let God be merciful upon you and open your mind to understanding mysteries that He revealed thru His Church.

Wisdom 1:12-13
Court not death by your erring way of life, nor draw to yourselves destruction by the works of your hands.Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.
But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.

1 Corinthians 15:21-27
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.

Hebrews 2:14
Now since the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death had been subject to slavery all their life.

2 Tim 1:9
He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began, but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed preacher and apostle and teacher.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Thank God all mighty that He doesnt require the brutal death of an innocent human being to forgive my sins. Islam is truly beautiful.

The greatest evil that men ever committed since the foundation of the world was to kill the Son of God in the flesh because of our sins (the sins of every human being from the first to the last generation). God Himself allowed this to happen, that the Son was to be made sin for our sake, though He has no sin. Such that, thru the disobedience of Adam death came into the world–heavens were closed, but thru the obedience of one man, Jesus Christ, life came–heavens were opened.

This is the paradox of the Cross, and it is left for you to reject or to accept. God is not forcing you to believe but is showing you His great love and mercy. This is the love of God manifested profoundly thru the Son.

Praise be Isa ibnu Allah!

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Isa 'ABDU Allah! Praise Allah, He is above what you describe.

You can’t either describe.

No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and to whom He chooses to reveal Him.

For no one can say; “Jesus is LORD, except by the Holy Spirit.” Truly, the Holy Spirit is not yet in you. And we pray that he grants salvation into your household. For salvation has indeed come upon your household. Now is the perfect time, behold now is the time of salvation. Repent, believe and be baptized, so your sins might be forgiven, and you will receive eternal life.

Isa is saying to you right now; **“Come to me, all you who are weary and heavily burdened, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” **

Praise be Isa ibnu Allah!

Pio