Allah says to tax and destroy the Jews and Christians

[BareKnuckler]

I think that when you read its texts you should then come back and discuss this. YOu will find out what many are trying to tell you is that - yes, what you just wrote is correct.

What has fairness to do with this? It is in their texts, and that I cannot help. One needs to read the Quran and at least the hadiths and Ishaq to be able to put it together because without the hadiths (at least Bukhari) and Ishaq to put some sense to the Quran - the Quran is mostly nonsensical rants. Mein Kampf was better written but has the same message, with less violence violence, or a call to it, than the Quran. Yes, I have read that too.

It will take me some time to read all of the Quran and have notes on it, I’d estimate at least a year (with a lot of notes), but ok, I’ll try my best.

btw: Was Mein Kampf any good? I wana check it out, but I have heard it’s on the FBI list of books to track (yes I’m paranoid) and I can’t seem to find it in any library near me.

Your comments are always so smug and prideful for a Taoist:shrug: What dont you get about the difference between what is taught as doctrine through a Holy book and is current with that which christians aknowlege as wrong and sinful and not from God and in the past… Where as Islam will show you the writing that allows them to tax, kill, enslave and behead.

How was that prideful and smug? I simply made a statement that said sorry you don’t like their way, if you consider that prideful, then sorry for ya.

Have you ever had a serious debate with a Muslim in real life?

 

[Agabriel]

You still don’t get it do you?
If a christian sins then he is still a christian, if he is a christian and doesn’t sin then he is still a christian, the same goes for muslims.

The difference bareknuckler once again is what each faith teaches, Christianity says turn the other cheek while islam says an eye for an eye.

Louie, it is more than an eye for an eye. It is kill, or subjugate, if one does not accept Islam. And subjugation is only given to the ‘people of the Book (Bible)’. I don’t even know why bareknuckler is defending something that is even less tolerant towards his religion than Christianity and Judaism.

An eye for an eye might be for each other - but if it concerns an unbeliever - it is even less than an eye for an eye. No non-muslim may touch a muslim. No matter what the muslim has done to them. Sharia laws have NO rights for a non-muslim (unless they pay that jizyah and they can practice their religion with harsh conditions put on them).

 

[BareKnuckler]

Louie, it is more than an eye for an eye. It is kill, or subjugate, if one does not accept Islam. And subjugation is only given to the ‘people of the Book (Bible)’. I don’t even know why bareknuckler is defending something that is even less tolerant towards his religion than Christianity and Judaism.

An eye for an eye might be for each other - but if it concerns an unbeliever - it is even less than an eye for an eye. No non-muslim may touch a muslim. No matter what the muslim has done to them. Sharia laws have NO rights for a non-muslim (unless they pay that jizyah and they can practice their religion with harsh conditions put on them).

I am not defending them, merely asking questions.

I hope your getting this straight from the Quran, or some Muslim Holy Text.

In my country, their is no Sharia Law, and I’d rather go down fighting before allowing any religion to be over another in my country, cause when that happens, the U.S. is no longer free. When one religion has more power then the other in the political process, democracy is over.

 

[fishisgood]

It will take me some time to read all of the Quran and have notes on it, I’d estimate at least a year (with a lot of notes), but ok, I’ll try my best.

btw: Was Mein Kampf any good? I wana check it out, but I have heard it’s on the FBI list of books to track (yes I’m paranoid) and I can’t seem to find it in any library near me.

How was that prideful and smug? I simply made a statement that said sorry you don’t like their way, if you consider that prideful, then sorry for ya.

Have you ever had a serious debate with a Muslim in real life?

You are being intellectually dishonest you know the tone of many of your posts (such as the above)… “In real life” I spent a year living in a safe house in Iraq living with Iraqi men breaking bread and discussing religion and politics and fighting shoulder to shoulder with them against Sunni insurgents and Iranian influence… As a history major I took 25 hours of Islamic history… so yes in “real life” I have debated and befriended and loved muslims…

 

[BareKnuckler]

You are being intellectually dishonest you know the tone of many of your posts (such as the above)… “In real life” I spent a year living in a safe house in Iraq living with Iraqi men breaking bread and discussing religion and politics and fighting shoulder to shoulder with them against Sunni insurgents and Iranian influence… As a history major I took 25 hours of Islamic history… so yes in “real life” I have debated and befriended and loved muslims…

So, my tone is bad, but your tone…isn’t?..

Really, calling me a liar is going to get you nowhere, and I only asked that cause of some advice given to me by a Muslim, so next time you see a post of mine and decide to call it bad of tone, think about it, cause 90% of the time, I am not trying to be mean in my tone, and if I am, I will usually pm you letting you know I am going to ignore you, and then I do not even respond to your posts.

 

[Agabriel]

I am not defending them, merely asking questions.

I hope your getting this straight from the Quran, or some Muslim Holy Text.

In my country, their is no Sharia Law, and I’d rather go down fighting before allowing any religion to be over another in my country, cause when that happens, the U.S. is no longer free. When one religion has more power then the other in the political process, democracy is over.

Like I stated previously, it would help if you cracked open their texts and read it for yourself. Instead of going on what I, or anyone else writes, read it for yourself. Why would you take a Muslim’s viewpoint on it when it seems that their behaviors are against what they tell us? Why is it they do nothing about their violent ones, unless it is to protest FOR them when Israel finally strikes back after almost a year of the violent ones lobbing bombs into Israel?!

If there is anything spiritual in them, it is only the parts they stole from the Bible - and even those parts are all twisted up to meet Muhammed’s agenda. One needs to have read the Bible too to know where the Quran screws up the stories. Muhammed needs the Bible for its existence, but then says the Bible is screwed up - so kill its adherents (or subjugate them).

Yes, it will take some time to read those texts and yes, the Quran has no sense to it. That is why one has to read the other things - the hadiths (Bukhari is said to be the better, even in the Muslim world) and Ishaq. And when they refer to the Sira - they are refering to Ishaq, the history of Muhammed. Sometimes they will tell you that Ishaq is not anything - well, they usually do not know their own texts either, or trying to confuse the issue. intentionally deceiving us to know the koran: 6:25 6:110 17:45-76

And Muslims will tell you that you won’t understand without a cleric (well, if they are that stupid then fine - they don’t have to tell me that I am that stupid!). Or you are taking it out of context (that is why you need to include the hadiths and Ishaq. They will tell you that Ishaq is irrelevent, but he is who puts the QUran in context.

You will find that the Quran is what tells the Muslims to confuse and obscure their religion to us. The Muslims of old were not even supposed to take a Quran with them if they went to different lands. Unbelievers were not supposed to read the Quran. They have ‘enjoyed’ almost 1400 years of no one questioning them, because no one was allowed to read their texts and NEVER question Islam, Muhammed and Allah. Now they have to go through the UN, intimidate and terrorize, or just try to confuse people from reading/discussing their stuff.

It shouldn’t stop us from doing so though.

And we are not talking about America right now. You don’t want me to get started on that subject!

 

[Agabriel]

I am not defending them, merely asking questions.

I hope your getting this straight from the Quran, or some Muslim Holy Text.

In my country, their is no Sharia Law, and I’d rather go down fighting before allowing any religion to be over another in my country, cause when that happens, the U.S. is no longer free. When one religion has more power then the other in the political process, democracy is over.

I don’t find anything in Islam as ‘holy’. ‘Holey’ yes, but not ‘holy’.

If you want me to provide something that you have a question about - let me know.

Sometimes I don’t always come back to CAF so if I don’t answer that is because I have to do something else.

I need to add that when I started reading about Islam I had no idea that I would find such violence, immorality, etc. I had no idea that Muhammed was such an evil, immoral man. None. After I read for several years - I had no idea why anyone would follow such a man. Then one day I got a book called, Fascism and Paganism: A brief comparison of Nazism, Communism and Islam and along with some further readings - realized how fascist Islam really was. The similarities between Hitler’s Mein Kampf and the Quran was astonishing. The similarities between Muhammed and Hitler was astonishing. The similarities between Hitler’s ‘Fate’ and Muhammed’s “Allah” was also astonishing.

I did eventually download a Mein Kampf and read it. And Mein Kampf.

 

[pjk123]

@Agabriel and others.I seriously want to tell there is not even anything worth arguing with this @BareKnuckler kind of guys.There is One thing in South Asia and South East Asia which is Hindu Extremism.Here ,Even Buddhists,Jains and others see Christianity as the Same Blood Brother to Islam.Generally ,they are Not at all comfortable with christianity due to lacking of anything in Bible to defame us.They would be very happy to tell you “missionary menace” and other terms as well.
There are Indian Radical Hindu Parties Like RSS,VHP,Shiva Sena,Hindu Munnani,ABVP and many Others who abuse christians due to the reducing number of Hindus to Christianity and Catholicism(Although evangelical church distributes money and influential positions to allure Hindu Converts which Catholic Church had not done in india)But Catholic Church is Targetted in India Especially By these Radicals.

They are more of Equating Christ to Reiki(healing hands),Christiantiy as something Christ copied from Eastern Religions-Buddhism,Hinduism etc.
In Their Mind ,They See Christianity also as A Bigger Enemy than Islam is!See some sample:
google.co.in/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.debian%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=45u&num=50&q=christian+missionary+RSS&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIN&aq=f&oq=

^They Brand Spreading of Good News(Heck we are not asking to convert ,but requesting to follow the true path) as “Christian terrorists” et al.

This Site please!INDEAYH!:

persecution.in/

 

[Agabriel]

@Agabriel and others.I seriously want to tell there is not even anything worth arguing with this @BareKnuckler kind of guys.There is One thing in South Asia and South East Asia which is Hindu Extremism.Here ,Even Buddhists,Jains and others see Christianity as the Same Blood Brother to Islam.Generally ,they are Not at all comfortable with christianity due to lacking of anything in Bible to defame us.They would be very happy to tell you “missionary menace” and other terms as well.
There are Indian Radical Hindu Parties Like RSS,VHP,Shiva Sena,Hindu Munnani,ABVP and many Others who abuse christians due to the reducing number of Hindus to Christianity and Catholicism(Although evangelical church distributes money and influential positions to allure Hindu Converts which Catholic Church had not done in india)But Catholic Church is Targetted in India Especially By these Radicals.

They are more of Equating Christ to Reiki(healing hands),Christiantiy as something Christ copied from Eastern Religions-Buddhism,Hinduism etc.
In Their Mind ,They See Christianity also as A Bigger Enemy than Islam is!See some sample:
google.co.in/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.debian%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=45u&num=50&q=christian+missionary+RSS&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIN&aq=f&oq=

^They Brand Spreading of Good News(Heck we are not asking to convert ,but requesting to follow the true path) as “Christian terrorists” et al.

This Site please!INDEAYH!:

persecution.in/

Thanks. He also sounds like our left wingers here in the USA and also in Europe and the UK. But I will read some of those articles you are supplying to better understand.

I will usually respond to posts like his, but quite often it isn’t solely for him, but for anyone who has the same types of thoughts and really need to get their questions answered. Most of their questions could be solved if they ***READ ***for themselves!

And what I noticed is that this type of thinking is continually posted here and elsewhere, and the responses to them have to be continually given - like raising two year olds forever and ever.

 

[jonfan]

Someone doesn’t like being shot back with an accusation :knight2:

No. Someone doesn’t like threads being derailed. As I said before if you want to talk about the viloence the Christian Church caused start another thread. I would never condone such violence. You on the other hand are trying to compare a quote from the Quran that millions of people are trying to emulate with viloence in the present day compared to folks back in the dark ages that were not emulating the teachings of Christ.

Ta Ta,

Jonny

 

[BareKnuckler]

Thanks. He also sounds like our left wingers here in the USA and also in Europe and the UK. But I will read some of those articles you are supplying to better understand.

I will usually respond to posts like his, but quite often it isn’t solely for him, but for anyone who has the same types of thoughts and really need to get their questions answered. Most of their questions could be solved if they ***READ ***for themselves!

And what I noticed is that this type of thinking is continually posted here and elsewhere, and the responses to them have to be continually given - like raising two year olds forever and ever.

I’m right here

I am glad you have made an assumption of what group I belong too, but no dis-respect is needed, cya.

 

[Louie1983]

Sorry you don’t like Islam’s difference .

Actually i don’t like the violent message it preaches. You misunderstood (again) what the difference is and built your argument on that. Quite amatuer really.

 

[Louie1983]

** Islam says an eye for an eye and Judaism also says an eye for an eye. So where do you stand? You are the odd one out with impractical theology.

Sorry, there is no impractical theology from my part. Our lord commanded that we pray for our persecuters and love thy neighbour. He also said not love only those that love us as there is no reward in that. I don’t see that writeen anywhere in the Koran.**

The original policy for Jesus was also an eye for an eye because he was following the Law of Moses faithfully. He was a Jew. He advised the jews to be kind and not to be too harsh and hard on the exact words of the Law. But that to use some sense and love too. That was a good advice, if it could be followed. It is the best to offer the other cheek but not always possible. It is quite impractical. Even the Christians did not and do not act according to that advice of Jesus.

Incorrect again, The jews were waiting for god to deliver them from captivity of sin. Jesus even explained that some laws were so because of the hardness of their hearts! Jesus revealed the law in it’s entirity and that was to love thy neighbour and pray for those that persecute you (among other truths he revealed). No christian follows his advice? John paul 2 forgave the man that tried to kill him (who was a muslim to by the way) and there have been millions of saints who have given their life by not resisting (you should read a book on a saint named maximillian kolbe - he was killed by the nazis so a father could see his children again!)

It is only present in the bible in words only. No other use. P C was right in complaining about the persecution of the Jews at the hands of the christians.

Your wrong agai and your lack of knowledge on how the church teaches is painfully obvious, the church teaches through holy scripture and holy tradition! (oral word) not everything that the church teaches is in the bible. Even one of the writers explains that if he were to write everything that Jesus did it would be never-ending! Yes the jews were persecuted by christian, and vice versa, muslims have been persecuted by christians and vice versa. This only proves that we are all sinners, nothing else.

 

[BareKnuckler]

Actually i don’t like the violent message it preaches. You misunderstood (again) what the difference is and built your argument on that. Quite amatuer really.

From what I’ve gathered talking to Muslims, it isn’t as violent as you claim it is.

Nice, being rude is a way to show your not a amatuer, like me…

 

[Louie1983]

From what I’ve gathered talking to Muslims, it isn’t as violent as you claim it is.

Nice, being rude is a way to show your not a amatuer, like me…

How was i being rude?, i was just stating my opinion. I said that your argument was amatuerish (and how you built it was amatuerish), not you!

 

[Agabriel]

From what I’ve gathered talking to Muslims, it isn’t as violent as you claim it is.

Nice, being rude is a way to show your not a amatuer, like me…

Well, their history speaks differently. Especially the history of Muhammed speaks differently. In fact, the violent passages fit in with what the Sira and hadiths say. And if you don’t think that killing, enslaving, raping, torturing, assassinating (a woman still suckling her baby and an old man over 100 years old), looting, etc then I guess you don’t think it is violent. That fits right along with the Muslims who don’t think it is violent.

The thing is that those things are done against the ‘hypocrits’ (bad muslims who won’t fight or give their wealth to support the Jihadists), and unbelievers (non-Muslims). And because it is said that it is ok to do those things - it is labeled as ‘good deeds’ - then they have no problem with it all.

And this is where part of the deception comes in. They do not tell us that they discern between believers and unbelievers, that they divide the earth up into dar al harb (war) and dar al islam and what they do on dar al harb (our lands not under Sharia laws) is a-ok.

Maybe you don’t know about
taqiyya/kithman.

Al-taqiyya and dissimulation are words used for a practice of
Muslims blatantly lying to non-Muslims. All but some of the most fundamental Muslims consider the act of Al-taqiyya or lying to non-Muslims to be a good work. This is very important when one remembers that, in Islam, salvation is determined by good works. This means that a Muslim lying to a non-Muslim is that Muslim doing a good work to earn salvation. It is almost equivalent to a Christian accepting Jesus as his savior. One of the big differences is that a Christian only needs to accept Jesus as his savior once to become saved forever but a Muslim must do his good works consistently and repeatedly to earn his salvation with the except of the greatest work of dying while fighting
non-Muslims.

 

[pjk123]

Those Ignorant on islam’s ambitious plans for Khilafat(caliphate) and Ummah(World under Islam where church and state is under Islam) under 2050 for Europe and India.

youtube.com/watch?v=o3UXrnDhcf4
Read:
faithfreedom.org

 

[jakasaki]

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah

Allah said,

قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ ]

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.)

Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah’s Law and religion.

Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad’s advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah’s statement,

قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ]

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination.

The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat.

The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.

Tafsir.com - Sura 9

 

[jakasaki]

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Allah said,

حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ]

(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,

عَن يَدٍ]

(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ]

(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled.

Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

«لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه»

**(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) **This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, **demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. **

The scholars of Hadith narrated from Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ashari that he said, "I recorded for Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

**This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion.

We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.

We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims.

We will not teach our children the Qur’an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor.

We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.

We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.

We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.’ When I gave this document to Umar, he added to it, We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection.

If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.’’’**

Tafsir sura 9

For the above treaty, the Christians are “submitting” to mohamas islam. This all sounds too familiar today when our Church Bells cannot be rung in muslim countries.

 

[rpp]

Does it make you just as uncomfortable to know that under Christian law it was illegal for Jews to share their faith with a Christian? Such Jews were tortured and killed. And that it was illegal for a Christian to convert to Judaism, and that converts were tortured and then burned at the stake by the church? Nor were they even allowed to be buried, but their ashes scattered.

Would you like to hear about the forced conversions of Jews, and the slaughter that ensued when Jews refuesed?

Would you like to hear about the pogroms, the wholescale slaughter of villages of Jews by christians, for no other reason than that they were Christ-Killers who used the blood of Christian children to make matzah?

When you understand that paying taxes under Islam was much more merciful to Jews than living with Christians, THEN you will truly understand. At least with the Muslims the Jews could give them the tax money and be left alone.

You have made a number of assertions here. Nazi Germany aside (Nazi’s were neo-pagan, not Christian), please provide citations for each of these assertions. It seems to me that you lack a good understanding of history so as you attempt to defend your wild assertions here, perhaps you will learn that these thing really never took place.

As for mob violence and racism, yes, there certainly was that. However, it is a grave sin in Christianity to kill someone. Those who did so could not be described as behaving in a manner consistant with what the Church taught.