Allah swears by it

[Montalban]

Al-lah swears it! You don’t believe him, look then, he swears to things (which are less than he)

[74.32] Nay; I swear by the moon,
[74.33] And the night when it departs,
[74.34] And the daybreak when it shines;

Not just the moon…
[70.40] But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We
are certainly able

[75.1] Nay! I swear by the day of resurrection.
[75.2] Nay! I swear by the self-accusing soul.

[37.1] I swear by those who draw themselves out in ranks

[51.1] I swear by the wind that scatters far and wide,
[51.7] 1 swear by the heaven full of ways.

[52.1] I swear by the Mountain,

[53.1] I swear by the star when it goes down.

[56.75] But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;

[68.1] Noon. I swear by the pen and what the angels write,

[69.38] But nay! I swear by that which you see,

[75.1] Nay! I swear by the day of resurrection.
[75.2] Nay! I swear by the self-accusing soul.

[77.1] I swear by the emissary winds, sent one after another (for men’s
benefit),
[77.5] Then I swear by the angels who bring down the revelation,

[79.1] I swear by the angels who violently pull out the souls of the
wicked,

[81.15] But nay! I swear by the stars,

[84.16] But nay! I swear by the sunset redness,
(given that the sun is only ‘red’ by perspective this is an interesting
thing for an ‘all-knowing god’ to go by

[85.1] I swear by the mansions of the stars,

[86.1] I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
[86.11] I swear by the raingiving heavens,

[89.1] I swear by the daybreak,

[90.1] Nay! I swear by this city.

[91.1] I swear by the sun and its brilliance,

[92.1] I swear by the night when it draws a veil,

[93.1] I swear by the early hours of the day,

[95.1] I swear by the fig and the olive,

[100.1] I swear by the runners breathing pantingly,

[103.1] I swear by the time,
(and all the time, so it seems)

The funniest is where he swears by the Koran itself!
[36.2] I swear by the Quran full of wisdom

[38.1] Suad, I swear by the Quran, full of admonition.

[43.2] I swear by the Book that makes things clear:

[44.2] I swear by the Book that makes manifest (the truth).

and of these, this is the best…
[50.1] Qaf. I swear by the glorious Quran (that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah.) classic circular reasoning

 

[jack_hawkins]

Yes, that’s definitely a discrepancy!!! where’s ham?

 

[George_Waters]

How soon do you all think it will be before we are told this is a poor translation of the quran and that if we read it in its original Arabic it would all be clear and we too would praise allah?

After coming to this forum and discussing things with Muslim members I have seen just how much justification it takes to believe the quran.

Pray they will come into the light where they will not need to justify things to others and more importantly themselves.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Ah, but in America there is no such thing as truth. We’re just supposed to be nice and tolerant. I teach Comparative Religions in a Community College. The only way I can get this past the department is to have a guest speaker do it. Occasionally I do.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

Genesis 9:16-17 (NAB)

16
As the bow appears in the clouds, I will see it and recall the everlasting covenant that I have established between God and all living beings–all mortal creatures that are on earth."
17
God told Noah: “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all mortal creatures that are on earth.”

Well…crud. Defend this, if you would?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Genesis 9:16-17 (NAB)

16
As the bow appears in the clouds, I will see it and recall the everlasting covenant that I have established between God and all living beings–all mortal creatures that are on earth."
17
God told Noah: “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all mortal creatures that are on earth.”

Well…crud. Defend this, if you would?

Let’s keep on track! What has this got to do with the thread - try zero?
How can the undecided help sort anything out?

 

[eliasaph99]

Genesis 9:16-17 (NAB)

16
As the bow appears in the clouds, I will see it and recall the everlasting covenant that I have established between God and all living beings–all mortal creatures that are on earth."
17
God told Noah: “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all mortal creatures that are on earth.”

Well…crud. Defend this, if you would?

OK.

This is God using anthropomorphic language to describe Himself to us.

For our benefit, He is ascribing new meaning to one of His previous creations so that when we see it, we are reminded to think of Him and His promise of mercy to us.

Note that He is not swearing by the rainbow, He is saying that the rainbow will be a reminder. It is the sign of the covenant. It is not the covenant itself, and the certainty of the covenant does not in any way depend upon the integrity of the rainbow. Quite different.

 

[inJESUS]

The True God swears only by Himself in the Bible, not in created things.

 

[Hellisreal]

Maybe its a language thing? Maybe it means something else to them and it doesnt translate well?

I dont know Arabic so I dont know what all the swearing is signifigant of.

 

[Mirdath]

OK.

This is God using anthropomorphic language to describe Himself to us.

For our benefit, He is ascribing new meaning to one of His previous creations so that when we see it, we are reminded to think of Him and His promise of mercy to us.

Note that He is not swearing by the rainbow, He is saying that the rainbow will be a reminder. It is the sign of the covenant. It is not the covenant itself, and the certainty of the covenant does not in any way depend upon the integrity of the rainbow. Quite different.

Yet it’s easy to interpret the verses quoted by Montalban in much the same way – as a poetic device, ‘so long as the moon is in the sky I will be keeping you all accountable’. As the rainbow is the visible sign on which the pact of ‘no more global flooding’ is concluded, so are the various things sworn on in the Quran signs of similar pacts.

If one chooses not to accept that interpretation, it’s still no fault on Allah’s part. When one swears by a thing, it is generally considered a mark of faith in that thing’s permanence and/or rectitude as well as an oath, is it not? Isn’t that why various religious people swear oaths upon their holy texts (much the same circular reasoning as Montalban mocks last), some upon their mothers’ graves, and so on? Who better to know permanence and rectitude than God?

It is no misstep on the part of a deity to swear by a created thing; some oaths just don’t require you to put yourself at stake. It’s simply a privilege that Christians do not believe God has exercised.

 

[st_lucy]

Genesis 9:16-17 (NAB)

16
As the bow appears in the clouds, I will see it and recall the everlasting covenant that I have established between God and all living beings–all mortal creatures that are on earth."

Well, I am not sure what all the mix up in this is God is not swearing to anything. He just saying that the rainbow that He made (with His own hands) will serve as a reminder to all living beings-- all mortal creatures that are on earth. (um if this is the confusion, that would be us humans and animals alike, since we are mortal creatures here on earth. )

17
God told Noah: “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all mortal creatures that are on earth.”
the sign of the covenant is a promise that God gave to us here on earth.
Well…crud. Defend this, if you would?

I don’t understand how this can even compare to the OP, maybe I am missing something and you can elaborate further on what your meaning of posting this test.

 

[st_lucy]

Yet it’s easy to interpret the verses quoted by Montalban in much the same way – as a poetic device, ‘so long as the moon is in the sky I will be keeping you all accountable’. As the rainbow is the visible sign on which the pact of ‘no more global flooding’ is concluded, so are the various things sworn on in the Quran signs of similar pacts.

If one chooses not to accept that interpretation, it’s still no fault on Allah’s part. When one swears by a thing, it is generally considered a mark of faith in that thing’s permanence and/or rectitude as well as an oath, is it not? Isn’t that why various religious people swear oaths upon their holy texts (much the same circular reasoning as Montalban mocks last), some upon their mothers’ graves, and so on? Who better to know permanence and rectitude than God?

It is no misstep on the part of a deity to swear by a created thing; some oaths just don’t require you to put yourself at stake. It’s simply a privilege that Christians do not believe God has exercised.

I guess my confusion is in this statement.

[70.40] But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We
are certainly able

Who are the Lords of the East and the West?

Also since my Muslim religion is rather rusty or non existing, who does Muhammad say he is? Is he God? Is he the Messiah? Or is a very high prophet?

Sorry if this sounds a bit accusatory, I am really not trying to sound that way, but I am actually curious.

 

[inJESUS]

Mirdath, did God ever swear that way in the Bible? no, as simple as this.

I swear by Myself, says the LORD." Jeremiah 22:5

“But hear the word of the LORD, all Jews living in Egypt: ‘I swear by my great name,’ says the LORD, ‘that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, “As surely as the Sovereign LORD lives.”’” Jeremiah 44:26

“For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself.” Hebrews 6:13

Compare with:

Verily, by thy life (O Prophet), in their wild intoxication, they wander in distraction, to and fro. S. 15:72 Y. Ali

I swear by the Quran full of wisdom S. 36:2

I swear by those who draw themselves out in ranks S. 37:1

Suad, I swear by the Quran, full of admonition. S. 38:1

I swear by the Book that makes things clear: S. 43:2

I swear by the Book that makes manifest (the truth). S. 44:2

Qaf. I swear by the glorious Quran (that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah) S. 50:1

I swear by the wind that scatters far and wide, S. 51:1

I swear by the heaven full of ways. S. 51:7

I swear by the Mountain, S. 52:1

I swear by the star when it goes down. S. 53:1

These are simply the words of a human.

 

[inJESUS]

I guess my confusion is in this statement.

But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able

Who are the Lords of the East and the West?

QUOTE]

And they will not - I swear by thy Lord - they will not believe, until they have set thee up as judge between them on points where they differ…] 4:65

And I swear by thy Lord, we will surely gather together them and the Satans: then will we set them on their knees round Hell 19:68

By the Lord then of the heaven and of the earth, I swear that this is the truth, even as ye speak yourselves. 51:23

 

[Mirdath]

Who are the Lords of the East and the West?

According to various sources:

East: the city of Vladivostok, the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl, the Egyptian god Sopdu, and Allah himself.
West: the Valar in Tolkien’s mythology, and Allah himself.

In the Quran’s account of Moses’ meeting with Ramses II (Quran 26), Moses refers to Allah as ‘Lord of the East and West, and all between’. Note that what you’re originally quoting refers to a singular Lord.

However, Montalban got the context wrong. In Quran 70, Mohammed is the speaker, not Allah; and the prophet is calling upon God to back him up.

Also since my Muslim religion is rather rusty or non existing, who does Muhammad say he is? Is he God? Is he the Messiah? Or is a very high prophet?

Mohammed is considered the last prophet, Jesus being next-to-last. Islam considers neither to be divine or a messiah.

 

[st_lucy]

Mohammed is considered the last prophet, Jesus being next-to-last. Islam considers neither to be divine or a messiah.

Thank you for the reply. So if Mohammad is only a prophet how is it that he has so much say in the religion? He seems to be almost treated like a God. His image is not allowed to be depicted or his name is not allowed to be slandered. I know of no prophets who have such high esteem.

Do you suppose that through the years his message has been grossly misinterpreted?

 

[inJESUS]

Sorry but in 70:40 it is clearly Allah who is talking, not muhammad.

Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that **We **can certainly- Substitute for them better (men) than they; And **We **are not to be defeated (in Our Plan).

 

[jack_hawkins]

Thank you for the reply. So if Mohammad is only a prophet how is it that he has so much say in the religion? He seems to be almost treated like a God. His image is not allowed to be depicted or his name is not allowed to be slandered. I know of no prophets who have such high esteem.

Do you suppose that through the years his message has been grossly misinterpreted?

Muslims are followers of Muhammad and by saying Muhammad is the perfect example for all time they are in effect deifying him. They do effectively worship Muhammad, even though nominally they don’t.
Muhammad’s message is quite simple -
worship Allah
recognize ME as his Prophet (talk about egocentric)
take over the whole world and give everyone 3 choices - death, conversion or dhimmitude

 

[eliasaph99]

According to various sources:

East: the city of Vladivostok, the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl, the Egyptian god Sopdu, and Allah himself.
West: the Valar in Tolkien’s mythology, and Allah himself.

In the Quran’s account of Moses’ meeting with Ramses II (Quran 26), Moses refers to Allah as ‘Lord of the East and West, and all between’. Note that what you’re originally quoting refers to a singular Lord.

However, Montalban got the context wrong. In Quran 70, Mohammed is the speaker, not Allah; and the prophet is calling upon God to back him up.

Mohammed is considered the last prophet, Jesus being next-to-last. Islam considers neither to be divine or a messiah.

I bolded the part above.

I wanted to correct you. This is not true.

For one thing, I just read it to make sure that I did not have a misunderstanding, and it is clearly Allah speaking in the text.

For another thing, it is Muslim teaching that the Koran is the speech of Allah. All parts of the Koran are Allah speaking.

 

[eliasaph99]

Yet it’s easy to interpret the verses quoted by Montalban in much the same way – as a poetic device, ‘so long as the moon is in the sky I will be keeping you all accountable’. As the rainbow is the visible sign on which the pact of ‘no more global flooding’ is concluded, so are the various things sworn on in the Quran signs of similar pacts.

If one chooses not to accept that interpretation, it’s still no fault on Allah’s part. **When one swears by a thing, it is generally considered a mark of faith in that thing’s permanence and/or rectitude as well as an oath, is it not? ** Isn’t that why various religious people swear oaths upon their holy texts (much the same circular reasoning as Montalban mocks last), some upon their mothers’ graves, and so on? Who better to know permanence and rectitude than God?

It is no misstep on the part of a deity to swear by a created thing; some oaths just don’t require you to put yourself at stake. It’s simply a privilege that Christians do not believe God has exercised.

I bolded the lines above.

What you have stated is part of the point that I believe Montalban is making. God knows that all these things will pass away, therefore He would never promise something and compare the lasting of His promise to their permanency.

You can choose not to see the difference if you wish. I’m not going to debate it. To me the difference is plain.