Allah

[arthra]

Thanks again Kathleen for your posts!

You wrote above:

Going back … Islam came 600 years later. Muhammed put himself in conflict with all those who are not Muslim. There are contradictions in word and action in how People of the Book are treated. Muslims deny the crucifixion. But they are outside the event by hundreds of years, and really cannot comment on it because they had no witnesses of their own traditions living there and being at Calvary.

One of the issues you brought up concerns the crucifixion of Jesus and I’d like to explore with you how that happened to be expressed in the Qur’an… I agree with you that many Muslims read the verse in the Qur’an quite literally.

Let me share with you the verse in the Qur’an.

It’s located in the fourth Surih and the 157th verse as follows:

157 *And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.*

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura   4 - Women)

The above translation has

*they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them

There is another verse of the Qur’an that I believe sheds some light on this and reveals the inner meaning of the words. * It is found in Surih 2 verse 154.*

“And do not say about those who are killed in the name of Allah “They are dead” rather they are alive, but you perceive it not.”

*Note the last portion of the verse:**"…rather they are alive, but you perceive it not."

**Jesus in the Qur’an is referred to as the Spirit of God or Ruh-u-llah. It’s in Surih 4:171

The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of
God, and his Word which he conveyed into Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from
himself.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura   4 - Women)

Here’s what I believe the Qur’an is saying… Jesus as Spirit of God (Ruh’u’llah) could not be crucified. Those who crucified Him believed they had killed Him and ended His mission. He could not be the Messiah they believed if they could kill Him.

What does the Gospel say?

The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:

…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, “Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit” with these words he breathed His last.

~ Luke 22:46

What does the Qur’an say?

4:158* But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.***

 

[MartinJordan]

Thanks again Kathleen for your posts!

You wrote above:

Going back … Islam came 600 years later. Muhammed put himself in conflict with all those who are not Muslim. There are contradictions in word and action in how People of the Book are treated. Muslims deny the crucifixion. But they are outside the event by hundreds of years, and really cannot comment on it because they had no witnesses of their own traditions living there and being at Calvary.

One of the issues you brought up concerns the crucifixion of Jesus and I’d like to explore with you how that happened to be expressed in the Qur’an… I agree with you that many Muslims read the verse in the Qur’an quite literally.

Let me share with you the verse in the Qur’an.

It’s located in the fourth Surih and the 157th verse as follows:

157 *And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.*

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura   4 - Women)

The above translation has

*they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them

There is another verse of the Qur’an that I believe sheds some light on this and reveals the inner meaning of the words. * It is found in Surih 2 verse 154.*

“And do not say about those who are killed in the name of Allah “They are dead” rather they are alive, but you perceive it not.”

*Note the last portion of the verse:**"…rather they are alive, but you perceive it not."

**Jesus in the Qur’an is referred to as the Spirit of God or Ruh-u-llah. It’s in Surih 4:171

The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of
God, and his Word which he conveyed into Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from
himself.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura   4 - Women)

Here’s what I believe the Qur’an is saying… Jesus as Spirit of God (Ruh’u’llah) could not be crucified. Those who crucified Him believed they had killed Him and ended His mission. He could not be the Messiah they believed if they could kill Him.

What does the Gospel say?

The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:

…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit" with these words he breathed His last.

~ Luke 22:46

What does the Qur’an say?

4:158* But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.***

Hi Athra,

Quran verses you mention, is only assumption by you without citing Islamic texts that use those New Testament verses.

The New Testament is a Christian document. So you need to give examples of Islamic writings that point out those verses from the New Testament that these verses the Quran seem to refer to. After all isn’t it true the Quran says to refer to the Bible?

So, we need to see Islamic writings (from the time of the Quran) that cite to the verses from the New Testament.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Hi Athra,

Quran verses you mention, is only assumption by you without citing Islamic texts that use those New Testament verses.

The New Testament is a Christian document. So you need to give examples of Islamic writings that point out those verses from the New Testament that these verses the Quran seem to refer to. After all isn’t it true the Quran says to refer to the Bible?

So, we need to see Islamic writings (from the time of the Quran) that cite to the verses from the New Testament.

MJ

It’s as much a test for Muslims as it is a test for Christians dear Martin.

The explanation given by arthra is a scholarly piece of tremendous logic and reason, and indeed unites the vast majority of mankind if agreed upon.

It is a test for all those who refuse to acknowledge this explanation, a test from God.



.

 

[MartinJordan]

It’s as much a test for Muslims as it is a test for Christians dear Martin.

The explanation given by arthra is a scholarly piece of tremendous logic and reason, and indeed unites the vast majority of mankind if agreed upon.

It is a test for all those who refuse to acknowledge this explanation, a test from God.



.

The New Testament is a Christian document, so Islam needs to link it to itself. Not logic but Theological. Plus it’s not Luke 22.

On top of that “Into you hands…” .is a reciting of a Psalm.

And Jesus’ own words after his resurrection:

Luke 24: 25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Jesus has spoken…not Islam

MJ

 

[Servant19]

The New Testament is a Christian document, so Islam needs to link it to itself. Not logic but Theological. Plus it’s not Luke 22.

On top of that “Into you hands…” .is a reciting of a Psalm.

And Jesus’ own words after his resurrection:

Luke 24: 25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Jesus has spoken…not Islam

MJ

I don’t understand the logic of your very first statement Martin.

Why does Islam only need to link to itself? It does link to itself and other religions. Why is that a concern?

.

 

[MartinJordan]

I don’t understand the logic of your very first statement Martin.

Why does Islam only need to link to itself? It does link to itself and other religions. Why is that a concern?

.

I said Islam needs to link itself to the New Testament. ie cite the New Testament verses . Words by Jesus Himself.

MJ

 

[TonyBS]

I said Islam needs to link itself to the New Testament. ie cite the New Testament verses . Words by Jesus Himself.

MJ

If this was Proven, that is the Holy Books do indeed link to what Jesus has said, Then What?

What ramifications has this to the original question “Why do some people insist that Allah is not the same God Christians know”?

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

If this was Proven, that is the Holy Books do indeed link to what Jesus has said, Then What?

What ramifications has this to the original question “Why do some people insist that Allah is not the same God Christians know”?

Regards Tony

So are you going to prove the link? As It stands it hasn’t been forthcoming by those defending the Muslim understanding of Allah who tells in the Quran to refer to the Bible. So provide the verses taken from the New Testament such as Athra did as if it links to the Bible verse like Luke 22:46 (which is the wrong chapter in the first place ), anyway Jesus own words in chapter 24 prove he resurrected and walked among men and eventually ate with them.

Then what? I’ll tell you. Then better dialogue about who Jesus actually claimed to be.

Meanwhile it is only in charity Christians (like the Catholic Church) will say it is the same Allah. Because we believe in One God, the God of Abraham. But in reality Muslims have an imperfect understanding. Not that it’s not the same Allah (besides the name Allah originally used by Christians in Syria long before Islam)

MJ

 

[TonyBS]

So are you going to prove the link? As It stands it hasn’t been forthcoming by those defending the Muslim understanding of Allah who tells in the Quran to refer to the Bible. So provide the verses taken from the New Testament such as Athra did as if it links to the Bible verse like Luke 22:46 (which is the wrong chapter in the first place ), anyway Jesus own words in chapter 24 prove he resurrected and walked among men and eventually ate with them.

Meanwhile it is only in charity Christians (like the Catholic Church) will say it is the same Allah. Because we believe in One God, the God of Abraham. But in reality Muslims have an imperfect understanding. Not that it not the same Allah . MJ

If I provide a Link will you believe in Muhammad and in the Koran?

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

If I provide a Link will you believe in Muhammad and in the Koran?

Regards Tony

I’ll be very happy to see the link first. For better dialogue. Please follow what I’ve explained. Kindly don’t demand something I’ve not claimed that I will do if such is provided.

Also keep in mind no proselytizing allowed in CAF.

MJ

 

[KathleenGee]

The behavior of the Jewish prophets all pointed to the truth and consequences for those who fell into idolatry or infidelity against God. Their warnings came true for those who refused to recognize God’s prophets.

We also can look at the Septuagint tradition of the Old Testament. There were 70 rabbis called by the Emperor Ptolemy in Egypt 200 years before Christ, to prepare for him the most authentic books of Scripture.

Emperor Ptolemy had each rabbi separated from each other and instructed to compose the books of the bible.

When the books were completed, all versions were brought forward by the 70 rabbis who never spoke to each other during the time of their transcriptions. When the books of each rabbi were compared, each book was there, and looking further, every paragraph of each book conformed to the writings among all 70. Even more so, all the books word for word, were identical and this is supernatural, the work of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit provides life and unity and communion with God and believer.

The Septuagint is considered the most authentic. It is the text Our Lord, His apostles and St. Paul referenced. There is one particular prophet, Isaiah, who foretold of the man of suffering who came to us in Christ.

Christ said He is the face of the Heavenly Father, Christ said we are not slaves, but His friend. And through Christ, we are adopted sons and daughters of the Heavenly Father.

Christ chose 12 apostles as His witnesses and sent them forth through the Holy Spirit to preach the Good News.

Islam did not exist for hundreds of years after Christianity. The behavior of Muhammed, his wars and plunder, his sexual propensity, the violence he demonstrated in his final years demonstrates more a prophet of death and destruction, a prophet of enslavement, that so in passages of the Quoran the way he calls others to look at him makes it sound like the real focus of Islam is pleasing Allah through Muhammed’s wants.

Islam is no interpreter of Judeo Christianity.

I do not look at words in themselves. I look at the actions committed with the word because then one sees the truth of one’s words. Islam has expanded primarily through death, destruction, and enslavement. Furthermore, Islamic countries have been very poor and backwards. Oil was their great riches and through this wealth, those countries been educated by Christian based countries. Turkey’s origin was Als Arslan, a marauder, nomadic who in part derived from Central Asia. The Turks gain wealth by plunder and murder.

Anyone caught reading authentic Christian bibles or catechism or any other authority on Christianity within Islam could be killed. It is against Islamic law to leave Islam. Even in Jordan, Muslims cannot leave their faith and Christians cannot share the Good News.

Big difference. Big difference.

The God we believe in is the God of Life, of Spirit, of Truth of Love.

And yes, we as human beings have the right to defend our faith, even if it means militarily. If Islam can defend its faith, so can we.

 

[TonyBS]

I’ll be very happy to see the link first. For better dialogue. Please follow what I’ve explained. Kindly don’t demand something I’ve not claimed that I will do if such is provided.

Also keep in mind no proselytizing allowed in CAF.

MJ

Then we will go with Matthew 27:12-14

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

And yes, we as human beings have the right to defend our faith, even if it means militarily. If Islam can defend its faith, so can we.

Biblical reference?

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

Then we will go with Matthew 27:12-14

Regards Tony

What does Islamic texts say about it?

And if so do Islamic texts continue with the rest of the chapter when Pilate said he asked the crowd, what crime Jesus committed and they disregarded the question and demanded crucifixion.

Clarify for me please.

Meanwhile since we are on the New Testament, here is something for today’s Mass readings;

Just for some good things about the Spiritual life:

God’s gift was not a spirit of timidity, but the Spirit of power, and love, and self-control. So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to the Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but with me, bear the hardships for the sake of the Good News, relying on the power of God who has saved us and called us to be holy. From 2 Timothy (who’s Feast with Titus ) we celebrate.

MJ

 

[TonyBS]

Just for some good things about the Spiritual life:

God’s gift was not a spirit of timidity, but the Spirit of power, and love, and self-control. So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to the Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but with me, bear the hardships for the sake of the Good News, relying on the power of God who has saved us and called us to be holy. From 2 Timothy (who’s Feast with Titus ) we celebrate. MJ

That is very nice - Amen. But it is also no about being timid

Ask if I would jump on a plane tomorrow and go see the Government of Iran about the Bahai’s that are being unjustly held in captivity or still go accidentally missing.

But this I can not do as self control and wisdom is needed

Also there are passages from Baha’u’llah that I must consider before posting. It would be wise each time I post, that I follow those guidelines

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

That is very nice - Amen. But it is also no about being timid

Ask if I would jump on a plane tomorrow and go see the Government of Iran about the Bahai’s that are being unjustly held in captivity or still go accidentally missing.

But this I can not do as self control and wisdom is needed

Also there are passages from Baha’u’llah that I must consider before posting. It would be wise each time I post, that I follow those guidelines

Regards Tony

What about Matthew 27? Islamic references? What was your idea to bring it up?

MJ

 

[TonyBS]

What about Matthew 27? Islamic references? What was your idea to bring it up?

MJ

You do not answer questions when a verdict is already given or there is no intent to consider the truth of the reply.

This is the case also with Allah, as He is revealed in the Koran.

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

You do not answer questions when a verdict is already given or there is no intent to consider the truth of the reply.

This is the case also with Allah, as He is revealed in the Koran.

Regards Tony

All Im asking is a link to NT verses. I was hoping you could provide it. If you cannot, then there it is. I can’t force you.

MJ

 

[arthra]

Hi Athra,

Quran verses you mention, is only assumption by you without citing Islamic texts that use those New Testament verses.

The New Testament is a Christian document. So you need to give examples of Islamic writings that point out those verses from the New Testament that these verses the Quran seem to refer to. After all isn’t it true the Quran says to refer to the Bible?

So, we need to see Islamic writings (from the time of the Quran) that cite to the verses from the New Testament.

MJ

Thanks for your post Martin!

Above you wrote:

Quran verses you mention, is only assumption by you without citing Islamic texts that use those New Testament verses.

The only “Islamic texts” I referred to are “Qur’anic verses” and the only reference from the New Testament I used is found in Luke 22:46 which happens to be coincident with the Qur’anic verse found in Surih 4:158.

Let me suggest that the one verse that refers to the crucifixion of Jesus found in the Qur’an (4:157) is an incidental reference in a series and not a historical accounting or re-writing of the “history” provided in the New Testament.

I’ll provide here some of the references in (An-Nisa) Surih 4:

*154 And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.

155 Then** because of their breaking of their covenant**, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few -

156 And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
**
157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them**; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
*
…

So the above is not a “history” as provided in the New Testament. It is an account of the breaking of a Covenant and disbelief.

 

[MartinJordan]

Thanks for your post Martin!

Above you wrote:

Quran verses you mention, is only assumption by you without citing Islamic texts that use those New Testament verses.

The only “Islamic texts” I referred to are “Qur’anic verses” and the only reference from the New Testament I used is found in Luke 22:46 which happens to be coincident with the Qur’anic verse found in Surih 4:158.

Let me suggest that the one verse that refers to the crucifixion of Jesus found in the Qur’an (4:157) is an incidental reference in a series and not a historical accounting or re-writing of the “history” provided in the New Testament.

I’ll provide here some of the references in (An-Nisa) Surih 4:

*154 And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.

155 Then** because of their breaking of their covenant***, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few -

156 And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
**
157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them**; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

…

So the above is not a “history” as provided in the New Testament. It is an account of the breaking of a Covenant and disbelief.

Arthra which Bible are you using?

Luke 22:46 is : are you sleeping?" he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.” ?

Let’s get this part straight first.

Plus

Luke 24: 13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

19 “What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

So what are you saying about the Covenant? Not making any sense.
MJ