Allah

[TonyBS]

The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for" (CCC 27).

MJ

Seems it stopped with Allah

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

That’s not the Word of God though MJ…

.

What do you mean?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Seems it stopped with Allah

Regards Tony

What stopped? Clarify please.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

What do you mean?

MJ

I mean that Fred Phelps desired God, sought God and never stopped searching for God. Is he speaking the Word of God too?

.

 

[MartinJordan]

I mean that Fred Phelps desired God, sought God and never stopped searching for God. Is he speaking the Word of God too?

.

Who is Fred Phelps? And what does he have to do with the Church Jesus built (Catholic Church)?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Who is Fred Phelps? And what does he have to do with the Church Jesus built (Catholic Church)?

MJ

He also says that he has the Church that Jesus built (Westboro Baptist Church)

No one said God stopped anything. The Word was from the beginning.

MJ

Christianity says that God stopped new Revelations.

.

 

[MartinJordan]

He also says that he has the Church that Jesus built (Westboro Baptist Church)

Okay. I checked. He passed away. Unfortunately he was quite extreme. Not a fan of the Catholic church clearly.

Christianity says that God stopped new Revelations.

.

That’s what we call the Living Gospel.It doesn’t stop.

In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

Excerpt from : vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

Colors and bold mine.

MJ

 

[Bill_Martin]

More to the point: do Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as they???

I have no idea. I have heard of at least one muslim saying we do but I do not know what their leaders teach. I am sure some say yes and some say no, just like among Christians. It does not matter to me even if the majority say no because I believe The Catholic Church.

You both might find the open letter “A Common Word Between Us and You” interesting: acommonword.com/the-acw-document/

It’s a letter composed by a large number of Muslim leaders addressed to Christian leaders emphasizing the common ground between Islam and Christianity. Obviously it doesn’t speak for every single Muslim–no letter could–but they made a great effort to get signatures from representatives of many different schools of thought within Islam. It’s worth a read.

 

[TonyBS]

What stopped? Clarify please.

MJ

The quote posted was this

Originally Posted by MartinJordan;

“The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for” (CCC 27).

The post above are suggesting that God stopped drawing us to Himself after Jesus the Christ, that the Desire of a Muslim for God is not written on the heart.

Correct that If it is wrong

Regards Tony

 

[hasantas]

Yes, Reuben, it was a mind blower and I could not somehow agree with the concept that Muhammed drew on Judaism and Christianity to develop the Quoran, and likewise I also am sharing a sense that he did not write it. He was too much a conqueror.

Likewise when they make claims of Christ not crucified, it is equal in simple statement to our belief that Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead.

Furthermore, the most ancient name of Allah was the devil. And not all Muslims venerate the black stone equally in Mecca. I am reading outside sources the history of the Saud family going back to the 1700’s and adapted the Wahhabi interpretation of their sacred book. And that the Shi ites would readily destroy Saudi sacred sites.

So I find Islam based essentially on domination and physical might. All the contrary interpretations still are based on totalitarian domination of others, and the other – one could lose one’s life for leaving Islam.

The word Allah developed from “ilah” which mean deity or godhead. That word is very similar with language family in Assyrian “Laha” and in Aramaic “alâha” and in Abramic “lahumme” which is very close to Allahumme(my God).

Allah word was not name of devil but maybe you have devil thoughts.

 

[Servant19]

Okay. I checked. He passed away. Unfortunately he was quite extreme. Not a fan of the Catholic church clearly.

That’s what we call the Living Gospel.It doesn’t stop.

In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

Excerpt from : vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

Colors and bold mine.

MJ

What was wrong with the Rabbis? Why was there a need for Jesus? The Rabbis had plenty of the Living Word of God teaching the masses…

.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hasantas, thanks.

I will go back and find source that stated Allah was ancient name of the evil one.

We look at fruits.

Our understanding of God through Christ His Son is that we are free in the Lord, provided we live in Christ through Word and Sacrament and enter into communion of the Holy Trinity.

I have read passages of Quoran of God and Spirit, so in our context, Muslims believe in two persons of One God.

To see one’s self as a slave is a second class, sub human status. Our God does not define us as such. We are adopted heirs into divine life. But our sign of divine life is serving our neighbor in love.

What we do good or bad to our neighbor, we will face judgment.

The One True God does not contradict Himself or His own Natural Law that He created. Thou shalt not lie, thou shalt not kill. The Lord has called us to freedom in Him. We are not slaves.

Does your understanding of Islam cause you to allow death to someone a former Muslim who now decides he wants to join another religion?

I ask this question and never get an answer by Muslims. Does a person deserve to die if he leaves Islam?

 

[TonyBS]

Hasantas, thanks.

I will go back and find source that stated Allah was ancient name of the evil one.

We look at fruits.

Our understanding of God through Christ His Son is that we are free in the Lord, provided we live in Christ through Word and Sacrament and enter into communion of the Holy Trinity.

I have read passages of Quoran of God and Spirit, so in our context, Muslims believe in two persons of One God.

To see one’s self as a slave is a second class, sub human status. Our God does not define us as such. We are adopted heirs into divine life. But our sign of divine life is serving our neighbor in love.

What we do good or bad to our neighbor, we will face judgment.

The One True God does not contradict Himself or His own Natural Law that He created. Thou shalt not lie, thou shalt not kill. The Lord has called us to freedom in Him. We are not slaves.

Does your understanding of Islam cause you to allow death to someone a former Muslim who now decides he wants to join another religion?

I ask this question and never get an answer by Muslims. Does a person deserve to die if he leaves Islam?

If One recognises Christ then leaves or fails to act, they are already dead as well.

Let The dead bury the dead.

Christ warned of these times that we would be so caught up in the way of the world that we would no longer see His Word as it should be.

The same warning is in the Koran. Thus what we have now is the Blind leading the Blind.

The veils have been lifted and all these questions answered.

Regards Tony

 

[808Catholic]

If Muhammad and the Koran are indeed from God, then one would have to consider this quite deeply, would you agree?

Indeed, if the Koran were from God, we Christians should consider it and why God would send another prophet after Jesus said “It is finished.” What did Jesus mean by this if not His ministry on earth is complete? Was Mohammed sent by God after Jesus ascended back into heaven because Jesus forgot to pass on a critical message or do an important action? As a Christian, I don’t doubt Muslims are faithful to Islam; my question has to do with their understanding of Allah and his nature.

I have found this Prayer by the Bab and interesting Meditation on this aspect of Faith, note the end of the Prayer, I have put in Bold a couple of thoughts from this prayer;

"Vouchsafe unto me, O my God, the full measure of Thy love and Thy good-pleasure, and through the attractions of Thy resplendent light enrapture our hearts, O Thou Who art the Supreme Evidence and the All-Glorified. Send down upon me, as a token of Thy grace, Thy vitalizing breezes, throughout the daytime and in the night season, O Lord of bounty. No deed have I done, O my God, to merit beholding Thy face, and I know of a certainty that were I to live as long as the world lasts I would fail to accomplish any deed such as to deserve this favor, inasmuch as the station of a servant shall ever fall short of access to Thy holy precincts,** unless Thy bounty should reach me and Thy tender mercy pervade me and Thy loving-kindness encompass me**.
All praise be unto Thee, O Thou besides Whom there is none other God. Graciously enable me to ascend unto Thee, to be granted the honor of dwelling in Thy nearness and to have communion with Thee alone. No God is there but Thee.
Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance.

To me this shows errors of the past, that God tests our waywardness, this is free will after all.

While I agree with you that man has and continues to choose to turn away from God, I don’t believe God tests us per se. God knows what is in our hearts and minds before we choose. He knows the outcome of our choices and actions so why would He need to test us??? As a Christian, I also believe in the evil one who fell from grace and exists to battle man; he has tempted us from the very beginning and even tempted Jesus for 40 days and nights in the desert. His role is to turn us away from God and fill hell with the lost souls.

Further on in Matthew 19 is verse 28: “Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

While we can’t know exactly what Jesus meant by this passage (no one knows the mind of God), Christians believe we can discern His intent by reading the Bible and following the early church fathers who lived with Him. We believe in Jesus’ promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the church He established and that the church will prevail not because we have popes and bishops who lead us but because the Holy Spirit leads them (and us.)

If the Koran is correct and Jesus is not God but an Islamic prophet (lesser than Mohammed), we Christians are surely in error and Jesus did lie to us!. That’s a pretty significant divergence from our Christian belief that God came to earth taking on human nature while maintaining His Divine nature and established His church on earth with a promise that church shall not fail or falter until the final judgement. In my opinion, this discrepancy is so wide, there is no bridging the gap. I also believe, we can agree to disagree on the nature of God since Christians and Muslims (and Jews) are merely human and prone to limited understanding.

 

[808Catholic]

You both might find the open letter “A Common Word Between Us and You” interesting: acommonword.com/the-acw-document/

It’s a letter composed by a large number of Muslim leaders addressed to Christian leaders emphasizing the common ground between Islam and Christianity. Obviously it doesn’t speak for every single Muslim–no letter could–but they made a great effort to get signatures from representatives of many different schools of thought within Islam. It’s worth a read.

Ecumenism is a great method of community but cannot be used to dilute the faith either for Muslims or Christianity. I appreciate your effort!

 

[hasantas]

Hasantas, thanks.

I will go back and find source that stated Allah was ancient name of the evil one.

We look at fruits.

Our understanding of God through Christ His Son is that we are free in the Lord, provided we live in Christ through Word and Sacrament and enter into communion of the Holy Trinity.

I have read passages of Quoran of God and Spirit, so in our context, Muslims believe in two persons of One God.

To see one’s self as a slave is a second class, sub human status. Our God does not define us as such. We are adopted heirs into divine life. But our sign of divine life is serving our neighbor in love.

What we do good or bad to our neighbor, we will face judgment.

The One True God does not contradict Himself or His own Natural Law that He created. Thou shalt not lie, thou shalt not kill. The Lord has called us to freedom in Him. We are not slaves.

Does your understanding of Islam cause you to allow death to someone a former Muslim who now decides he wants to join another religion?

I ask this question and never get an answer by Muslims. Does a person deserve to die if he leaves Islam?

217-They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, “Fighting therein is great [sin], but averting [people] from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and [preventing access to] al-Masjid al-Haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater [evil] in the sight of Allah . And fitnah is greater than killing.” And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally. Al-Baqarah(2)

In that verse God inform that disbelief will urge and fight to believers to turn back from relgion and God remind that if who turn back from religion will die as unbeliever and go Hell. So there is no any order to kill human who turn back from religion.

256-There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. Al-Baqarah

There is no compulsion in religion. That mean if you make someone by compulsion or fear of (sword) then that is not acceptance by God.

No. Islam do not order to kill former Muslims. But there are some Hadiths which allow to kill seceder. Some scholars say it is allowed to kill man who turn back from religion. But some others Islamic scholars state that that permission is for who turn back and start to fight against Islam. If we look at application in Islamic history as much I know there are no many cases and Islam allowed to kill and fight against attacks.

In the first times of Islam God allowed Muslims to defence and fight against Pagans who attack Islam. Otherwise Muslims did not kill any Pagans who did not attack or set a trap for Muslims.(For instance occupation of Mecca)

Muhammad convinced thousands people to believe in God in very short time. Muhammad did not do that by sword. First Muslims suffered very much but they did not turn back from religion despite all pressure and persecutions. And later Muslims established a state and made wars as it is usal for a state to make wars.

 

[TonyBS]

Further on in Matthew 19 is verse 28: “Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

While we can’t know exactly what Jesus meant by this passage (no one knows the mind of God), Christians believe we can discern His intent by reading the Bible and following the early church fathers who lived with Him. We believe in Jesus’ promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the church He established and that the church will prevail not because we have popes and bishops who lead us but because the Holy Spirit leads them (and us.)

If the Koran is correct and Jesus is not God but an Islamic prophet (lesser than Mohammed), we Christians are surely in error and Jesus did lie to us!. That’s a pretty significant divergence from our Christian belief that God came to earth taking on human nature while maintaining His Divine nature and established His church on earth with a promise that church shall not fail or falter until the final judgement. In my opinion, this discrepancy is so wide, there is no bridging the gap. I also believe, we can agree to disagree on the nature of God since Christians and Muslims (and Jews) are merely human and prone to limited understanding.

You have not considered that our conversation is a Test 808. Testing is to confirm our sincerity, the Greatest of all men suffer the most, we all learn at every moment of our lives. Muhammad Glorifies Christ and Takes what is His and Showed it unto you that these differences would not arise, that was now some 1390 years ago.

The world is as it is because we are failing the standard set by God, we are all tested and more-so the believers. You may note that is is the so called believers that can afflict the most harm to a Religion.

The key is here that it is not a battle as to Who is the Best exponent of God, the key here is they are all the Best Exponents of God. It is up to us, mankind to submit to the inherent wisdom in them all.

One God - Allah for the Muslims

One God - For Christians through Christ

One God for the Jews…etc

Now here is a thought - One God for the Baha’is and guess what it is magnificent being a follower of all the Prophets, I get to Love them all and the Followers. I love it that I am a Buddhist, a Zorastrian, a Jew, a Chiristain, a Babi, a Bahai. But it does not stop there I am a lover of all the prophets and Messengers of God since it all began and I know this in turn gives me the Love for all that are yet to come.

Has Revelation ceased, the Koran says in 5.67 “The Jews say: “God’s hand is tied up.” Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth.”

And even with this, the Muslims also Tie up Gods Hands, as do the Christians and say their Revelation is Final.

The Jews Say Final, The Christians say Final, the Muslims say Final, yet still the revelations continue as they were promised to do so.

So praised Be Allah, Praised Be God and lets thank Him for the Tests and keep at our job of Unity and if that requires us all to agree to disagree, that is good if we learn to war no more over our One and Only God

Regards Tony

 

[arthra]

There’s an online book “The Preaching of Islam” by T.C. Arnold Professor of Arabic at the University of London:

islamhouse.com/en/books/396057/

I recommend it as it gives a view of the beginnings of Islam and spread through preaching…

 

[TonyBS]

There’s an online book “The Preaching of Islam” by T.C. Arnold Professor of Arabic at the University of London:

islamhouse.com/en/books/396057/

I recommend it as it gives a view of the beginnings of Islam and spread through preaching…

Thank you Arthra - Looks great and have downloaded it for a read.

Regards Tony

 

[exnihilo]

I just discovered that just a few days ago the Catholic philosopher Edward Feser wrote about this issue.

Christians, Muslims, and the reference of “God”

His consideration of the topic is, as is typical on his blog, more thorough than other treatments in similar formats.