Allegation that 30 percent of all Catholic priests are homosexual

[buffalo]

Deo Volente:

Grace & Peace!

Sure, buffalo–but secular society and conservative fundamentalist Christianity do not value celibacy (to my knowledge). In a catholic society, celibacy is part of the fabric of the whole–it’s a noble sacrifice. But in a society in which there is no priesthood, which is not catholic, such things look like foolishness or abnormality.

–Mark

Deo Gratias!

I think we are talking about two different things here. Are you saying we have a priest shortage because of celibacy?

Michael Rose claims that straight devotional men were routinely forced out or (didn’t make the cut) of the seminaries as being to rigid or orthodox. This had to do with their sexuality, not celibacy. So as a result what do you have left?

 

[fix]

Deo Volente:

Grace & Peace!

Fix, I think this position is in disagreement with the church–to be gay is not to be intrinsically disordered–homosexual activities are considered disordered. If we believe that homosexuality is a moral disorder, (or any more morally disordered that human nature already was by the fall), how do we refrain from passing moral judgment on those who suffer moral disorders?

Let us be very clear:

**

2358

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible.* This inclination, which is objectively disordered*, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.**

The inclination is a disorder. That does not mean being a homosexual is sinful, but the inclination is not ordered toward good. A careful, but necessaary, distinction must be made.

It’s easy not to pass judgment on those who suffer disease–one would not say that someone who has a cold is evil–a cold is not evil.

That is not an apt ananlogy. No one has used the word evil to describe one with SSA.

But to say, in effect, that evil clings more readily to the souls of some than of others (because of moral disorder) is very close to passing moral judgment on them. It’s a slippery slope. And the argument that it (same sex attraction in itself) is a medical disorder is flimsy at best.

Again, we should be clear about this. The inclination is disordered.

There is nothing intrinsically more “wrong” with homosexuals than with heterosexuals. To assume that there is seems to me to smack of some latent Donatism.

It would depend on how we phrase it. It is a medical disorder and the inclination is disordered. That does not mean a homosexual cannot be holy, but there is a difference in that homosexual tendencies are not normal.

 

[wcknight]

The vows or the clergy are like the vows of a married person. I’m married and in doing so, I vowed to remain faithful to one woman.

Priest and other clergy made vows to remain faithful to God.

I may be attracted to other woman but I don’t act on those desires. The clergy may be attracted to one sex or another or to neither or to both, BUT they too must remain faithful to God.

BUT because of their vows they can not express that either. They must ignore thier urges no matter what the attraction. They can not explore their sexuality in any way. They gave that up.

So regardless of their attraction to either, I do not see a problem with allow folks with SSA into the clergy, any more than allowing a heterosexual into the clergy.

Clergy who break their vows are equally sinful whether they break them with the same sex or the opposite sex. And pedophiles can be either male or female and they don’t necessarily have to be gay.

We think most are gay because that is where all the publicity has been.

I don’'t think it solves the problem or even helps to solve the problems by targetting same sex attraction in the clergy.

And more than likely you will be attacking a big group of folks (no matter what the percentage) who have committed no sin at all. It is NOT a sin to be attracted to the same sex. It is a sin to act upon it.

wc

 

[Liberian]

Liberian:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

My college-age daughter is off on a summer program and just telephoned. She said that one of her suite-mates (who is evidently Protestant of one form or another) told her that thirty percent of all Catholic priests are homosexual. According to the suitemate, her father did some research and compiled some statistics.

Does anybody have any solid research on the subject that my daugher could use to refute this scurrilous claim?

• Liberian

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your replies–in all directions. When my daughter asked her suite-mate about the suite-mate’s father’s sources of data, the suite-mate replied, “It’s *&^%s like you that have made this *&$%^$ world the way it is.” According to my daughter, the suite-mate refused to elaborate further. I have a fair idea that this allegation is not to be taken seriously–except that if left unchallenged it may take on a life of its own.

• Liberian

 

[Shoshana]

Liberian:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

My college-age daughter is off on a summer program and just telephoned. She said that one of her suite-mates (who is evidently Protestant of one form or another) told her that thirty percent of all Catholic priests are homosexual. According to the suitemate, her father did some research and compiled some statistics.

Does anybody have any solid research on the subject that my daugher could use to refute this scurrilous claim?

• Liberian

My pastor would tend to say the percentage is more in our diocese.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Returnee]

Liberian:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your replies–in all directions. When my daughter asked her suite-mate about the suite-mate’s father’s sources of data, the suite-mate replied, “It’s *&^%s like you that have made this *&$%^$ world the way it is.” According to my daughter, the suite-mate refused to elaborate further. I have a fair idea that this allegation is not to be taken seriously–except that if left unchallenged it may take on a life of its own.

• Liberian

I agree.

The reason I’m replying to this is to thank you for posting this back in June. I was wondering if I was the only one who’s heard such outrageous claims. Just last night, I was in an online discussion with someone and this person insisted that “The Vatican, or someone high up in the Church, has said recently that 50% of all priests (or maybe of men entering the preisthood) are gay”.

I was flabbergasted when he said that. I had never heard of such a claim, but the more I did research on it (on the Internet) it’s become clear to me that there are widely varying figures. Some go as low as 10%, others as high as 50%.

It’s disheartening. Up until now, I’ve been able to answer any anti-Catholic screed with relative ease, but this one is not one, it seems, that is easily refuted. The only thing I can say with certainty is that the Vatican certainly has NOT said anything of the sort, despite what the person last night said.

Other than that, this is not an issue that can be easily refuted, at least not that I can see now. If I come across any definitive answer, I may post it in the future.

 

[BillP]

This website (religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm) does a fairly good overview of the literature and comes up with about 30%.

As other posters have pointed out the orientation of a celibate preist is irrelevent.

For Fix and your

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible.* This inclination, which is objectively disordered*,

I’d say original sin and Human nature makes each and every one of us “objectively disordered” pretty much every day of our lives. Wouldn’t you say so?

 

[fix]

BillP:

For Fix and your

I’d say original sin and Human nature makes each and every one of us “objectively disordered” pretty much every day of our lives. Wouldn’t you say so?

No, I would not. We all have a fallen nature, but we all do not have an inclination toward this specific condition.

"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1211

 

[BillP]

fix:

No, I would not. We all have a fallen nature, but we all do not have an inclination toward this specific condition.

True enough, we don’t all have an inclination toward this specific condition. But what makes children of God who are afflicted with SSA’s less able to serve him than those who are afflicted with a disordered inclination for material wealth, or those who are aflicted with Gluttony, Lust, Anger or (my particular cross!) Sloth? Are none of us but the “perfect” fit to serve in personae Christi?

 

[fix]

BillP:

True enough, we don’t all have an inclination toward this specific condition. But what makes children of God who are afflicted with SSA’s less able to serve him than those who are afflicted with a disordered inclination for material wealth, or those who are aflicted with Gluttony, Lust, Anger or (my particular cross!) Sloth? Are none of us but the “perfect” fit to serve in personae Christi?

This question has been debated in many threads, most of which I have participated in. I will wait for the Vatican’s directive.

For now, my position is that there may be many things that would exclude one from ordination, that does not mean one cannot be holy or serve God.

 

[felra]

BillP:

True enough, we don’t all have an inclination toward this specific condition. But what makes children of God who are afflicted with SSA’s less able to serve him than those who are afflicted with a disordered inclination for material wealth, or those who are aflicted with Gluttony, Lust, Anger or (my particular cross!) Sloth? Are none of us but the “perfect” fit to serve in personae Christi?

Because SSA is a symptom of an underlying, unresolved psychological disorder. SSA is a pervasive desire of human sexuality. A priest does not become a non-sexual being upon ordination. I will defer to the Church’s forthcoming guidelines, but it is a falacy or pure naivette to ignore the centrality of our sexuality on all apects of our functioning. None of us are perfect, but I believe that a significant assessed degree of SSA makes a seminarian candidate unfit to serve in the vocational capacity of in persona Christi.

**2332 ***Sexuality *affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others. (CCC)

 

[miguel]

I don’t think it’s that high. This is how I estimate it.

Studies have shown that 2% of the general population have this disorder. Assuming this is much more a male thing than a female thing, it could be estimated that 4% of the male population have this disorder. Many studies have also shown that male-on-male sexual abuse of children makes up 30% of such cases.

Data from the clergy sex abuse scandal showed the male-on-male abuse was about 80%. This could be used to estimate the percentage of homosexual priests…(4)(80)/(30)=10.7%.

It’s not unreasonable to have a higher % than the general male population, especially if they were being recruited by fellow homosexuals within the clergy.

A couple more points…

About 4% of all priests were involved in the sex abuse scandal. 80% of those were homosexual.

So (4)(.8)=3.2% of all priests were homosexual predators.

That means that (3.2)/(10.7)=30% of the homosexual priests were predators.

On the other hand, (4)(1-.8)=.8% of all priests were heterosexual predators. Or (.8)/(100-10.7)=.9% of heterosexual priests were predators.

 

[BillP]

felra:

Because SSA is a symptom of an underlying, unresolved psychological disorder.

Would you care to cite some evidence of this?

felra:

SSA is a pervasive desire of human sexuality.

Are you saying that SSA is MORE pervasive than OSA? If so on what do you base this?

felra:

A priest does not become a non-sexual being upon ordination. I will defer to the Church’s forthcoming guidelines, but it is a falacy or pure naivette to ignore the centrality of our sexuality on all apects of our functioning. None of us are perfect,

None of these statements apply exclusively to SSA, they apply to Sexuality in general - right?

felra:

but I believe that a significant assessed degree of SSA makes a seminarian candidate unfit to serve in the vocational capacity of in persona Christi.

Why? Do you feel that SSA is a mental illness? Do you believe SSA is somehow “more powerful” tthan OSA? Is it more difficult for men experiencing SSA to maintain their vow of celibacy?

 

[fix]

BillP:

Why? Do you feel that SSA is a mental illness?

Individuals experience same-sex attractions for different reasons. While there are similarities in the patterns of development, each individual has a unique, personal history. In the histories of persons who experience same-sex attraction, one frequently finds one or more of the following:

· Alienation from the father in early childhood because the father was perceived as hostile or distant, violent or alcoholic (Apperson 1968[17]; Bene 1965[18]; Bieber 1962[19]; Fisher 1996[20]; Pillard 1988[21]; Sipova 1983[22])

· Mother was overprotective (boys) (Bieber, T. 1971[23]; Bieber 1962[24]; Snortum 1969[25])

· Mother was needy and demanding (boys) (Fitzgibbons 1999[26])

· Mother emotionally unavailable (girls) (Bradley 1997[27]; Eisenbud 1982[28])

· Parents failed to encourage same-sex identification (Zucker 1995[29])

· Lack of rough and tumble play (boys) (Friedman 1980[30]; Hadden 1967a [31])

· Failure to identify with same/sex peers (Hockenberry 1987[32]; Whitman 1977[33])

· Dislike of team sports (boys) (Thompson 1973[34])

· Lack of hand/eye coordination and resultant teasing by peers (boys) (Bailey 1993[35]; Fitzgibbons 1999[36]; Newman 1976[37])

· Sexual abuse or rape (Beitchman 1991[38]; Bradley 1997[39]; Engel 1981[40]; Finkelhor 1984; Gundlach 1967[41])

· Social phobia or extreme shyness (Golwyn 1993[42])

· Parental loss through death or divorce (Zucker 1995)

· Separation from parent during critical developmental stages (Zucker 1995)

In some cases, same-sex attraction or activity occurs in a patient with other psychological diagnosis, such as:

· major depression (Fergusson 1999[43])

· suicidal ideation (Herrell 1999)

· generalized anxiety disorder

· substance abuse

· conduct disorder in adolescents

· borderline personality disorder (Parris 1993[44]; Zubenko 1987[45])

· schizophrenia (Gonsiorek 1982) [46]

· pathological narcissism (Bychowski 1954[47]; Kaplan 1967[48])

In a few cases, homosexual behavior appears later in life as a response to a trauma such as abortion, (Berger 1994[49]; de Beauvoir 1953) or profound loneliness (Fitzgibbons 1999).

cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html

 

[BillP]

Well, that is an impressive group of cites that don’t actually say much on the issue of causation SSA.

It’s actually a fairly simple question. Do you feel that individuals that experience SSA are mentally ill?

Does the Church teach that?

 

[fix]

BillP:

Well, that is an impressive group of cites that don’t actually say much on the issue of causation SSA.

It’s actually a fairly simple question. Do you feel that individuals that experience SSA are mentally ill?

Does the Church teach that?

The Church does not claim to be an expert in medicine.

Most faithful people in the psychiatric and psychological fields would say it is a type of disorder.

Before 1973 it was classified by the establishment as a mental illness. The short answer is yes, it is a type of mental illness, or is associated with other psychological illnesses.

 

[felra]

Would you care to cite some evidence of this?

Se post by fix.

Are you saying that SSA is MORE pervasive than OSA? If so on what do you base this?

What does OSA stanbd for?

None of these statements apply exclusively to SSA, they apply to Sexuality in general - right?

The key to understanding and offering a compassionate response to individuals afflicted with SSA: SSA is a pervasive disordered desire, as isheterosexual attraction is a pervasive ordered desire.

Why? Do you feel that SSA is a mental illness?

SSA is a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder. To better inform yourself, you can begin with this link: www.narth.com

Do you believe SSA is somehow “more powerful” tthan OSA?

Defer to above clarification.

Is it more difficult for men experiencing SSA to maintain their vow of celibacy?

The ability to maintain a vow of celibacy is not the issue here.

This is what the Church has to say:

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=39700

“The text, which was approved by Pope Benedict at the end of August, says that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder which detracts from their ability to serve as ministers.”

“The Instruction does not represent a change in Church teaching or policy. Catholic leaders have consistently taught that homosexual men should not be ordained to the priesthood. Pope John XXIII approved a formal policy to that effect, which still remains in effect. However, during the 1970s and 1980s, that policy was widely ignored, particularly in North America.”

 

[BillP]

fix:

…The short answer is yes, it is a type of mental illness, or is associated with other psychological illnesses.

Fair enough. Since no one of goodwill can possibly be in favor of ordaining the mentally ill, your definition of SSA as a mental illness kind of renders further discussion pointless.

Nor do I feel suffciently grounded in psychology and psychiatry to argue the merits of that proposition.

We’ll simply have to agree to disagree I suppose

By the way. OSA = Opposite sex Attraction

 

[miguel]

Church teaching relative to your discussion…

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFHOMOP.HTM

 

[iserve]

As someone who worked for the Church for about 20 years, I agree with the 30% figure. I would also agree that celibacy just doesn"t equal the ability to trust in this matter, as many of the homosexual priests that I know who have claimed to be celibate have not espoused this for non-priests:; ie it is okay to be homosexually active - if you are not a priest. This, rather naturally, leads to manipulation of the Catechetical texts and Scriptural references, and to misleading many disturbed individuals into further confusion. It has also lead to aquiescence on the part of other clergy, which has just begun to open up since the details of the scandals and the statistical analysis of the them indicated (by a statistical preponderance) that the equation of this tendency with sociopathic behavior is not unfounded. Certainly, these statistics were not needed to know that speaking out in defense of, or in favor of homosexuality has grossly misled the Catholic people to false assumptions and tolerance… After all, if these permissions flow down from the pulpit, trusting Catholics accept it.

It will be many years before the clery will recover the respectability lost and the damage done by this infiltration of its ranks by those who cannot or will not equate homosexuality as problem behavior, to be dealt with in a way that causes no one to be scandalized, nor victimized, nor led to an eternity without God.