Alleged Desecration of Quran

[tuopaolo]

stillsmallvoice:

I read the following about Pope Benedict XVI’s first meeting with the media back on April 23:

I think that Newsweek would do well to take the Pontiff’s wise comments to heart.

What is even more interesting and applicable (IMO) is what he said at a later date:

“These important tools of communication can favour reciprocal knowledge and dialogue, or on the contrary, they can fuel prejudice and disdain between individuals and peoples; they can contribute to spreading peace or fomenting violence.”

It seems that Newsweek has chosen unfortunately to “fuel prejudice and distain” “fomenting violence.”

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Found this article over on New Max:

**Monday, May 16, 2005 11:56 a.m. EDT **

Gen. Myers: Detainee Flushed Koran Pages

Newsweek magazine’s decision to apologize on Sunday for reporting last week that U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had flushed a copy of the Koran down the toilet wasn’t the first hint that the story that has outraged Muslims worldwide may not be true.

On Thursday, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Richard Myers told reporters that the only evidence of any Koran desecration unearthed so far was a log notation describing a Muslim prisoner tossing pages from his holy book into the toilet.

Full Story

Looks like it may of been the prisoner not the guards who did the desecration. Of course, we will never see this in the MSM.

PF

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

I think that Newsweek, and reporters in general, need to realize that there are some stories that you just should not print. I mean, how stupid are these reporters??? They know there is already widespread hatred for Americans in the middle east and they give those people even more reason to kill Americans. Thank you, Newsweek. You’ve just further endangered the lives of people over there.

And as for the people protesting…go ahead and protest; if this really happened you have every right to be upset. But killing people over it? And killing people half a world away that had nothing to do with it? Get a freaking brain. Are you trying to make people think of Islam as being violent? If you are, it’s working like a charm. Plus, evidence now shows that it may have actually been the PRISONER who flushed the pages!

Even Newsweek apologized for the story…can you apoligize for the murder???

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

cestusdei,

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not confused. We don’t just simply judge something by looking at one side of the coin, and definitely we don’t do it by hasty generalizations.

There are certainly muslim countries like Indonesia (the world’s biggest muslim country) where freedom and religion can co-exist separately and this is a non-Islamic concept (the separation of church and state) yet tolerated in a “predominantly” muslim country. Shouldn’t we still be thankful Christianity exists in Indonesia or Malaysia? We may believe that Saudi Arabia or any other extreme Islamic societies still have to adopt this kind of non-Islamic concept, but wouldn’t it be imposing to them something they don’t need or don’t want? Why impose on them something that is unusual for them? Because we want ourselves to be fitted into their muslim societies the way we allow them to fitted into our societies? Is that why we are at war with them?

If I were given a choice only between white (US?) and black (Taliban?), I would cry out loud because that would be unfair for I know the gray part exists.

We say Islam is a violent religion and Christianity is the otherwise. But how many murders or rape happen everyday in christian countries compared to muslim countries?

What if a muslim tells a christian: practice first what you preach before you come into my home and tell me what to do and believe. What would you, a christian, answer?

PAX

cestusdei:

Lumen,
We live in societies that allow freedom of religion. They do not. We may abuse freedom by allowing abortion. But they don’t have freedom to begin with. Worse yet they don’t seem to want it. If you had to chose between the Taliban or the US I don’t think there is much choice. We Christians don’t go around killing people just because they burn a Bible. We don’t like it. But that isn’t why we are at war with them. Islam is a violent religion that encourages conflict. To them we are infidel and whatever they do to us is okay, but if we respond to defend ourselves then we are wrong. Don’t obfuscate. They are dead wrong. We may have our faults, but we ARE better then places like Saudi Arabia.

 

[cestusdei]

Lumen,
Indonesia? I seem to remember Christians being beheaded there and forced conversions to Islam. Let’s take another example. WWII, were the Americans better then the Germans? Sure you can point out American mistakes, but would it have been better if the Germans had won? The US isn’t perfect, but it is better then the Muslim terrorists. If you don’t see that then I would say we are in serious trouble as a nation. Far to many imagine there is a moral equivalency between the two sides. There isn’t. We are right and Osama is wrong. No gray area at all. Unless you want to argue that Hitler and Roosevelt were pretty much on the same level and we shouldn’t be to judgmental towards the poor Nazi’s. They were just misunderstood? Come on, you know the US is the right side in this war.

 

[StMarkEofE]

JimG:

Regardless of what Newsweek reports, and it was unverified, that is no excuse for the Muslim rioting.

All over Europe, Muslims may build mosques with no hindrance; in Rome, they wanted to build a mosque bigger than St. Peter’s basilica but had to settle for a merely large one.

Yet, in Saudi Arabia, one has to attend Mass in secret.

The West makes a virtue of tolerance. Where’s the reciprocity?

BECAUSE WE ARE SHEEP? We keep loving our enemies into our own distruction. I guess this may be the plan.

StMarkEofE

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

cestusdei,

I never heard of any forced conversion to Islam in Indonesia, or even Saudi Arabia although I might have heard of beheadings as capital punishments by Islamic shariah courts for criminal christians who broke the law in muslim countries. What I can vividly remember is those horrible treatments of muslim Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Graib prison by (christian ?) Americans.

Now we will go around in circles if we dwell on politics and religion. Neither Bush nor Osama is right. JP2 was right: war is a defeat for humanity. So while I can take out politics and democracy (Bush) and extremist religion/holy war/terrorism (Bin Laden), I still have the option - (JP2) - morality - what is right and what is wrong, and of which is what I have been trying to stress out in this thread.

You cannot put out a fire (Islam - a violent religion as you see it) with gasoline. Instead you put it out with water (Christ and his gospel message of love).

I can’t say to my neighbor he’s wrong, when all the while what I have been doing is also wrong.

PAX

cestusdei:

Lumen,
Indonesia? I seem to remember Christians being beheaded there and forced conversions to Islam. Let’s take another example. WWII, were the Americans better then the Germans? Sure you can point out American mistakes, but would it have been better if the Germans had won? The US isn’t perfect, but it is better then the Muslim terrorists. If you don’t see that then I would say we are in serious trouble as a nation. Far to many imagine there is a moral equivalency between the two sides. There isn’t. We are right and Osama is wrong. No gray area at all. Unless you want to argue that Hitler and Roosevelt were pretty much on the same level and we shouldn’t be to judgmental towards the poor Nazi’s. They were just misunderstood? Come on, you know the US is the right side in this war.

 

[cestusdei]

Non-judgemental? Okay, I will give you some of what the pc media and educational institutions won’t tell you.

persecution.org/Countries/indonesia.html

Here is a sample:
February 2001 – Numerous reports indicate that forced conversion to Islam and forced circumcisions may be more widespread than originally thought. Forced Islamization has been reported in parts of Seram, Buru, Bacan and Halmahera as well as Kasiui and Teor (mentioned in detail below). No one is exempt from circumcision, as both men, women, elderly, and infants have been forcibly circumcised. The use of dull razor blades and the absence of proper sanitation in these procedures have led to infections and in some cases, death.

Here is a sermon preached this week sponsored by your friendly Palestianian Authority:
" This Week’s Palestinian Authority Sermon: We (Muslims) Will Rule America; Israel is a Cancer; Jews are a Virus Resembling AIDS; Muslims Will Finish Them Off

The following are excerpts from this week’s official Friday sermon on Palestinian Authority ¶ TV. [1] The preacher is Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris, a paid employee of the PA. To view the sermon visit memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=669.

"Allah has tormented us with ‘the people most hostile to the believers’ – the Jews. ‘Thou shalt find that the people most hostile to the believers to be the Jews and the polytheists.’ Allah warned His beloved Prophet Muhammad about the Jews, who had killed their prophets, forged their Torah, and sowed corruption throughout their history.

"With the establishment of the state of Israel, the entire Islamic nation was lost, because Israel is a cancer spreading through the body of the Islamic nation, and because the Jews are a virus resembling AIDS, from which the entire world suffers.

"You will find that the Jews were behind all the civil strife in this world. The Jews are behind the suffering of the nations.

"Ask Britain what it did to the Jews in the early sixth century. What did they do to the Jews? They expelled them, tortured them, and prevented them from entering Britain for more than 300 years. All this was because of what the Jews did in Britain. Ask France what it did to the Jews. They tortured them, expelled them, and burned their Talmud, because of the civil strife the Jews wanted to spark in France, in the days of Louis XIX. Ask Portugal what it did to the Jews. Ask Czarist Russia, which welcomed the Jews, who plotted to kill the Czar - so he massacred them. But don’t ask Germany what it did to the Jews. It was the Jews who provoked Nazism to wage war against the entire world, when the Jews, using the Zionist movement, got other countries to wage an economic war on Germany and to boycott German merchandise. They provoked Russia, Britain, France, and Italy. This enraged the Germans toward the Jews, leading to the events of those days, which the Jews commemorat today.

"But they are committing worse deeds than those done to them in the Nazi war. Yes, perhaps some of them were killed and some burned, but they are inflating this in order to win over the of the media and gain the world’s sympathy. The worst crimes in history were committed against the Jews, yet these crimes are no worse than what the Jews are doing in Palestine. What was done to the Jews was a crime, but isn’t what the Jews are doing today in the land of Palestine not a crime?!

"Look at modern history. Where has Great Britain gone? Where has Czarist Russia gone? Where has France gone - France, which almost ruled the entire world? Where is Nazi Germany, which massacred millions and ruled the world? Where did all these superpowers go? He who made them disappear will make America disappear too, God willing. He who made Russia disappear overnight is capable of making America disappear and fall, Allah willing.

“We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world – except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relived of the Jews - even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew.”

 

[cestusdei]

When an American civilian is beheaded what is the response? Nothing or the Americans deserve it. Your non-judgementalism excuses terrorism. We defeated Hitler using guns. The Catholic Church is not pacifist. If I preach Christ’s love in Saudi Arabia they would kill me. If you went there and you prayed just by yourself at lunch and someone saw you then you could be executed. I am fed up with the pc garbage that says good and evil are indistinguishable. The US is better then them. Osama is a terrorist and Islamic terrorism is evil.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

cestusdei:

Unless you want to argue that Hitler and Roosevelt were pretty much on the same level and we shouldn’t be to judgmental towards the poor Nazi’s. They were just misunderstood? Come on, you know the US is the right side in this war.

This is what I try to point out to people who are always saying “The US is evil; they didn’t have any right to go into these countries.” I say to them: “Where was the outcry of sympathy for the Nazis during WWII?” There was none and there should be none now for these terrorists.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

So you expect a muslim riot whenever an American civilian is beheaded?

What makes the muslims so enraged to find out, even when it was turned out to be untrue, that the Koran has been desecrated and why are we christians unmoved when our own bible is burned in our own backyards? Could it be that muslims take their religion so important in their lives and we christians, in general, just don’t really care?

Lots of people and nations already have proven that peace can be achieved in a non violent way. No doubt on that and no need to explain further. If Christianity was able to tear communism and the USSR down in a peaceful manner, I don’t see any reason to believe why it cannot do so with extremist Islam.

The great Holy Apostle Peter preached about Christ’s love in Rome during Nero’s time (who was as notorious as our modern day Hitler, Saddam or Osama Bin Laden).

You seem to be fed up, oh ye man of little faith! Don’t give up, instead have faith in the mercy and grace of God.
Remember Saul (Paul) who persecuted and killed the christians? By God’s mercy he turned him into one of his greatest apostles.

The war is no better than terrorism. They are both killing people.

PAX

cestusdei:

When an American civilian is beheaded what is the response? Nothing or the Americans deserve it. Your non-judgementalism excuses terrorism. We defeated Hitler using guns. The Catholic Church is not pacifist. If I preach Christ’s love in Saudi Arabia they would kill me. If you went there and you prayed just by yourself at lunch and someone saw you then you could be executed. I am fed up with the pc garbage that says good and evil are indistinguishable. The US is better then them. Osama is a terrorist and Islamic terrorism is evil.

 

[cestusdei]

That is my point. We don’t kill people for burning the Bible. We don’t like it, but we don’t riot and kill them. Our threshold of anger is higher then that. Generally we respond to things like flying planes into buildings and killing thousands of innocent people. But hey, that’s just our judgmentalism. I am sure if someone entered your home and shot your family you wouldn’t call the cops. I mean your family members weren’t perfect and maybe brought it on themselves. Let the murderer go free to kill again, right?

You may say you believe these things, but I don’t think you act accordingly. You would call the cops and press charges. Muslim’s kill for reasons you and I never would. Their religion is a violent one. We have fought them for centuries. Remember Tours…Lepanto? Christians have had to fight to stop the Muslim invasions before. Give me some comfort here. Say straight and upfront that Hitler was evil and that the Allies were justified in fighting Germany in WWII. That we were the good guys. That would make me happy and give me the chance to challenge you to apply the same reasoning to Osama and his crew of thugs.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

cestusdei:

Muslims are protesting and killing each other over an unproven allegation. Thanks Newsweek, the blood is on your hands.

The most atrocious part is that Muslims routinely disrespect our religion. The smash crosses, burn churches, throw away rosaries and Bibles in the trash (in Saudi Arabia). They have NO respect for our faith. Yet demand respect for theirs. Their blind hypocrisy is simply amazing.

Not hypocrisy - human nature: albeit in one of its less atteractive manifestations.​

Read this about how they treat converts to Christianity in OUR OWN countries:

jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/14689.htm

That is less a Muslim failing, than a failing of the religious man: Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or “other”.​

Burning Talmuds is hardly respectful to Judaism, and destroying impounded Bibles is hardly respectful to Protestants - so I don’t see that we can really complain. Mercifully, the CC has dropped those behaviours. What goes around, comes around.

Just what sort of unpleasant behaviour do we complain of in others, that we have not done ourselves ? Ignoring that, would be hypocrisy. ##

 

[pnewton]

I think Newsweek has uncovered a great opportunity for America.

1. Islamic extremists value copies of the Koran more than human life. They put the greatest possible emphasis on stopping the desecration of these copies.
2. Americans put no real value on the physical paper itself.
3. Islamic extremists kidnap Americans (and others) and hold them hostage, eventually killing them.
4. America has a lot of printing presses.

Solution: We hold a copy of the Koran hostage for each American. We’ll swap 'em even. If their hostage dies, ours is desecrated.

We do not need more munitions, we need more paper.

 

[Malachi4U]

It’s only paper and ink, just like the Bible. We are the Church not the Bible. Jesus founded a Church and not a book.

Too bad some people use Bibles and Korans as graven images.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Lumen Gentium:

So you expect a muslim riot whenever an American civilian is beheaded?

What makes the muslims so enraged to find out, even when it was turned out to be untrue, that the Koran has been desecrated and why are we christians unmoved when our own bible is burned in our own backyards? Could it be that muslims take their religion so important in their lives and we christians, in general, just don’t really care?

Lots of people and nations already have proven that peace can be achieved in a non violent way. No doubt on that and no need to explain further. If Christianity was able to tear communism and the USSR down in a peaceful manner, I don’t see any reason to believe why it cannot do so with extremist Islam.

The great Holy Apostle Peter preached about Christ’s love in Rome during Nero’s time (who was as notorious as our modern day Hitler, Saddam or Osama Bin Laden).

You seem to be fed up, oh ye man of little faith! Don’t give up, instead have faith in the mercy and grace of God.
Remember Saul (Paul) who persecuted and killed the christians? By God’s mercy he turned him into one of his greatest apostles.

The war is no better than terrorism. They are both killing people.

PAX

That’s ridiculous. Should we have attempted to negotiate with Hitler and the Nazis? Mussolini? Pol Pot? Do you really think these terrorists will negotiate? If you do you’re extremely gullible.
And why would we even entertain the idea of giving these people what they want after they show that their means of achieving it are NOT peaceful and involve the brutal slaughter of innocent men, women, and children?
These people are evil, plain and simple. They are evil. And in the words of Terry Goodkind, “If, by hoping to appease it, you willingly comprimise with unrepentant evil, you only allow such evil to sink its fangs into you; from that day on its venom will course through your veins until it finally kills you.”
look at Chaimberlain’s policy of appeasement and how it caused WWII.
Terry Goodkind also said: “Where could you comprimise with those who torture, rape and murder? In the number of days a week you will be tortured? In how many of your family members are to be murdered? To even suggest that comprimise can exist with such men is to sanction murder.”

 

[cestusdei]

Here is a report of what happened when Islamic terrorists took over one of our holiest shrines and used the Bible as toliet paper.

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44324

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Sorry, but I still say this: we are no better than anyone else because we are all sinners and we all do evil things. Don’t exalt yourself high above those bad guys just because you think you are doing good things because God shows mercy on humble hearts.

Christ in our Lord’s prayer tells us to ask forgiveness for our sins as we forgive those who sin against us, and to ask God to deliver us from evil. He DOES NOT TELL us to FIGHT EVIL. Why is this so? Because we cannot fight evil without God’s help. Only through God can we conquer evil. But how can we get God’s help if we ourselves do and continue to do evil things? We only have the free will to choose between good and evil. We can either choose goodness or choose to be evil…remember Adam and Eve? God did not set out Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden to fight the devil, but to choose between goodness and evil.

Fighting evil by doing another evil thing is never justifiable. All wars are evil. Nobody who is involved in a war is ever better than anybody. Wars like WW2 could have been avoided I am sure. Wars like the current one could have been avoided I am also sure. Any conflict or war can be avoided. If we can fight evil with God’s help, we also have the human capacity to avoid evil, to avoid wars. If we only follow what Christ desires.

Remember, allowing evil in this world is not tolerating evil. God himself, in all his goodness, allows evil in this world. We cannot fight evil without God, and we cannot have God if we ourselves are evil. We are christians, therefore let us live our lives as christians and let us set our lives as examples to others who are not christians.

PAX

cestusdei:

That is my point. We don’t kill people for burning the Bible. We don’t like it, but we don’t riot and kill them. Our threshold of anger is higher then that. Generally we respond to things like flying planes into buildings and killing thousands of innocent people. But hey, that’s just our judgmentalism. I am sure if someone entered your home and shot your family you wouldn’t call the cops. I mean your family members weren’t perfect and maybe brought it on themselves. Let the murderer go free to kill again, right?

You may say you believe these things, but I don’t think you act accordingly. You would call the cops and press charges. Muslim’s kill for reasons you and I never would. Their religion is a violent one. We have fought them for centuries. Remember Tours…Lepanto? Christians have had to fight to stop the Muslim invasions before. Give me some comfort here. Say straight and upfront that Hitler was evil and that the Allies were justified in fighting Germany in WWII. That we were the good guys. That would make me happy and give me the chance to challenge you to apply the same reasoning to Osama and his crew of thugs.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

WWII was not justified on the part of the allies??? When you get to Heaven, tell that to the 6 million Jews killed in the concentration camps. Tell that to the 3 million Polish Catholics killed in the concentration camps. Tell it to all the other Catholics killed all over Europe. Tell it to the race of gypsies that was almost completely wiped out. Were Ireland and Scotland not justified in fighting against the English, who simply marched in and said “This is ours” and killed anyone who didn’t give them what they wanted?
Sure, WWII could have been avoided (cough England and France cough) but it wasn’t. Hitler was a servant of the devil, whether he recognized it or not. People like that–and these terrorists are the same–have given up their right to be allowed to do what they please. Trying to negotiate with people like that is putting their beliefs on the same level as yours; saying they are no worse. Their belief that they should be able to slaughter people is now equal to your belief that there should be peace. You’re saying that it’s perfectly all right for them to believe that way.
“Thou shalt not kill.” God was very clear on that point. These terrorists seem to think that killing is OK, even when they supposedly follow the Ten Commandments. Besides, these people, who are evil, cannot be reasoned with. Their comprimise is “Do every single thing we want or we’ll keep killing people.” And once you give them what they want, you’re telling them that their means of achieving it was morally just. And then guess what happens? They start to want more and use the same means to obtain it. The only way to stop these people, as terrible as it sounds, is to kill them. If they are taken captive, their friends will just kill more innocent people in an attempt to get them released. The Church does have a “just war” statement. It’s on this site.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m all for war; I would like nothing more than peace in the world. But unfortunately, peace is an impossible dream with people like these terrorists running around free.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

OOPs…I think we’re getting far from the original thought of this thread. Just to clear things out:

Some here think Islam is a violent religion. Terrorism is violence so that we may unconsciously believe that muslims are terrorists of which are not (most terrorists are muslims but not all muslims are terrorists) and of which we should really be careful about because if we are not, this continuous hatred between muslims and christians will never stop.

Evil is evil no matter in what form or shape it comes. War is simply evil. It’s the devil’s game, and we are his toys, but only if we allow to be his toys. I will only tell the jews in heaven that WW2 was justified on the part of the allies if anti-semitism has been completely wiped off the face of this earth.

Allowing evil is not negotiating with the devil nor it is tolerating. But evil + evil = more evil. I stick to my original thought. I would rather practice first what my faith teaches me before I go out and whine about muslims.

PAX
Rand Al'Thor:

WWII was not justified on the part of the allies??? When you get to Heaven, tell that to the 6 million Jews killed in the concentration camps. Tell that to the 3 million Polish Catholics killed in the concentration camps. Tell it to all the other Catholics killed all over Europe. Tell it to the race of gypsies that was almost completely wiped out. Were Ireland and Scotland not justified in fighting against the English, who simply marched in and said “This is ours” and killed anyone who didn’t give them what they wanted?
Sure, WWII could have been avoided (cough England and France cough) but it wasn’t. Hitler was a servant of the devil, whether he recognized it or not. People like that–and these terrorists are the same–have given up their right to be allowed to do what they please. Trying to negotiate with people like that is putting their beliefs on the same level as yours; saying they are no worse. Their belief that they should be able to slaughter people is now equal to your belief that there should be peace. You’re saying that it’s perfectly all right for them to believe that way.
“Thou shalt not kill.” God was very clear on that point. These terrorists seem to think that killing is OK, even when they supposedly follow the Ten Commandments. Besides, these people, who are evil, cannot be reasoned with. Their comprimise is “Do every single thing we want or we’ll keep killing people.” And once you give them what they want, you’re telling them that their means of achieving it was morally just. And then guess what happens? They start to want more and use the same means to obtain it. The only way to stop these people, as terrible as it sounds, is to kill them. If they are taken captive, their friends will just kill more innocent people in an attempt to get them released. The Church does have a “just war” statement. It’s on this site.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m all for war; I would like nothing more than peace in the world. But unfortunately, peace is an impossible dream with people like these terrorists running around free.