Allergic to tradition

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I’m only asking for O.F. because the vast majority of people here have experienced it only, or for the vast majority, of their lives
That is certainly a true statement in 2018, its been 50 years since the Latin Mass was normative.

But if you went back in time to 1970, the majority of the people had no problem with the holiness and reverence of the new vernacular Mass- and those are the people who did indeed experience both. Most of those folks are very old and maybe forgetful, or have passed since, of course.

I think if you look at the Latin Mass today, its much different in that it is only attended by a small fraction of the people as the vernacular. The attendees are self selected and seeking reverence.

So I think its to be expected that they would find it. If the Latin Mass was still normative, it would be no more reverent that the mainstream vernacular mass of today is- as the attendees and the priests would be the same.
 
Thank you Xanthippe, but that wasn’t the question.

The question was, for the person who attends the O.F. regularly and has for most of his/her life, does THAT person truly feel that the E.F. is exactly as holy and reverent as the O.F.?

You kind of went the other way around!
When a priest is reverent, I see no difference. They are both very holy offerings. I personally feel that Mass in my native tongue has more opportunity to be reverent because I can spend hours mulling over some of the precious words during the liturgy of the Eucharist. When said in Latin you don’t get to hear a majority of the prayers.
 
But that’s your personal preference which is fine. But that doesn’t make the EF less holy or reverent overall.
 
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Ok, again, I am not looking for the E.F. take on the O.F. We’ve heard for donkey’s ages now that the E.F. people ‘claim’ that the E.F. is more reverent and better than the O.F.’

But what I was looking for–and Xanthippe is providing it, actually–is the corollary. The fact that while E.F. adherents are looked down for promoting ‘their’ rite as being ‘better and holier’ and themselves more reverent etc.,

That those who prefer the O.F. are, surprise! saying exactly the same thing about THEIR rite.

They find the O.F. ‘more reverent’ because ‘we understand the language’ etc.

So please tell me why it is perfectly fine for O.F. adherents to express not just that ‘they prefer it’ but that “The O.F. IS more reverent and better than the E.F.”. . .

but it is mortal sin nastiness for an E.F. adherent to express not just that "they prefer it’ but that “The E.F. is more reverent and better than the O.F.”

I just wanted to know if, when the question was posed for O.F. adherents, would they respond by truly feeling their rite was ‘better’ (I mean face it that’s what ‘preference’ is all about, if you didn’t think something was better, you wouldn’t prefer it!). . .

And they did.

And again, I just want to know why it is horrible, divisive, and nasty for a person to say that he or she prefers the E.F. and finds it more reverent. . .

but it’s absolutely ‘fine’ to declare that a person prefers the O.F. and finds it more reverent.

Because you know, I myself, and other people who like the E.F., have made posts exactly like Xanthippe’s, Exactly. Even to the point of noting that both rites can be celebrated reverently. But that we believe one of the two rites has more ‘opportunity to be reverent’.

I just can’t understand why it’s the people who make the claim that they feel the E.F. is more reverent (and even if we don’t ‘hear’ the words we can read them and we can contemplate just fine) who get lambasted when the very same feelings and claims for the O.F. are accepted as a matter of course.
 
People resist change, particularly when the change represents something that they envision as more difficult than what they currently do or experience. When fighting for the status quo, people get extremely inventive about why changes will not be “worth the trouble” or will bring on unforeseen adverse consequences.

I think in 1970, a lot of people were looking for change for the sake of change. Now, people have a prejudice against doing things the way their grandparents did. It has to be something no one has ever done or else the way something is (or was) done by someone far away or long ago. If some tradition lasted long enough that the Greatest Generation did it, though…no thanks. Their opinions are not in fashion right now. The Baby Boomers rejected the Greatest Generation and their take on things, and to be honest that is about the only thing their children think their parents and grandparents got right as they proceeded to foul up the entire last half of the whole fouled-up 20th century. (That is not my opinion, but what I gather people believe about the actions of Americans throughout the 20th century.)

I don’t think it is much more complicated than that. There are, to be fair, a good many of the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the Greatest Generation who believe that the first half of the 20th century was a lot less fouled-up on a spiritual level than the last half.
 
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Some people who seem to think that there is a moral imperative in following pre-Vatican 2 traditions are quick to raise up those who do as paragons of virtue, often with a sly bent that those who don’t are of weak or little faith. And perhaps that is why some individuals - few in number, but lacking in charity, take umbrage. The vast majority of people have little or nothing to say, for example, about whether or not a woman wears a mantilla.

I am also old enough to remember that most women wore hats, not hankies or Kleenex with a bobby pin, and mantillas were relatively rare then.

As we almost always use the Confiteor and Kyrie, that issue is a non-starter. On the rare occasions we do not use them, the alternatives are approved by the Church.

Most people wouldn’t know the Roman Canon from any of the other canons, and all are approved by the Church.

The Church has preference for it; and I suspect that Rome is also aware that it is largely not used. I don’t have a dog in the fight, having grown up prior to the change in the Mass. Saying prayers in Latin is not going to make my socks roll up and down; neither is it going to bother me in the least should our parish do so.

I am not going to get into a debate about which direction the priest faces. Most people accept it, and willingly so.

I find your comment about midnight fasting to be one which ignores that some of us cannot sustain that long a fast, in particular when going to a later Mass. Let’s be honest here: most people prior to the change in the fast law, and most particularly in the US, were not fasting from midnight, but in reality were fasting from 6 or 7 p.m. when their evening meal was finished. So it was not an 8, or 9, or 10 hour fast for Masses starting at those times, but was more like a 13, or 14, or 15 hour fast. And not to make too fine a point of it, but from the Gospel readings it can be deduced that the Apostles had no fast at all, since the Eucharist first occurred at the end of their Passover meal.

No, I don’t think anyone really thinks that the reforms of Vatican 2 will be nullified - I have not met any in the last 52 years. But I have met people who are attached to practices and traditions (with a small “t”) who react to new traditions as if they are abominations. And some of those traditions are not from “time immemorial”, but from time specific. Over the centuries, traditions waxed and waned; some replaced with other traditions, which in turn were replaced with other traditions. Some people appear to be more attached to the form of a tradition than to the substance which underlies both an older tradition and a newer one.

As to modern culture, some members of the Church have a very myopic view of history. As the bishops of the world pointed out, over the history of the Church, things were added to the Liturgy over time that were time specific and needed to be removed, and things were lost over time which needed to be brought back.

Some disagree with that, which should come as no surprise; while the vast majority of the bishops of the wold voted in favor of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy (2,146), a few (4) voted against it.
 
When a priest is reverent, I see no difference. They are both very holy offerings. I personally feel that Mass in my native tongue has more opportunity to be reverent because I can spend hours mulling over some of the precious words during the liturgy of the Eucharist. When said in Latin you don’t get to hear a majority of the prayers.
I think there is a lot of spiritual mileage to be had out of going with what you are given, too.

If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but [also] everyone for those of others. Phil. 2:1-4

From this, it could be argued that the best liturgy is the one that allows me to give in to the preference of someone other than myself, or that it is the most profitable to resolve to accept what is offered with thanksgiving rather than looking it over and finding fault with it.

If that were to happen, no, I do not think it would matter whether it were the OF or the EF that were used.

C.S. Lewis put these words in the pen of his senior temptor, the demon Screwtape:
"…all the purely indifferent things—candles and clothes and what not—are an admirable ground for our activities. We have quite removed from men’s minds what that pestilent fellow Paul used to teach about food and other unessentials—namely, that the human without scruples should always give in to the human with scruples. You would think they could not fail to see the application. You would expect to find the “low” churchman genuflecting and crossing himself lest the weak conscience of his “high” brother should be moved to irreverence, and the “high” one refraining from these exercises lest he should betray his “low” brother into idolatry. And so it would have been but for our ceaseless labour. Without that the variety of
usage within the Church of England might have become a positive hotbed of charity and humility,

Your affectionate uncle,
SCREWTAPE
 
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I am talking about literal sheep. Animals. I do not know whether one can ascribe intentions to animals the way people have intentions. I suspect not. Animals do not have morals. All I am saying is that people are often like sheep. Just look at popular culture and the media that wants to lead people a certain way and get people to spend money in certain ways. It is always telling people what to like and what to wear, and now in the case with “news” shows, what our opinion should be on world events and politics and etc. Yes and yes to your statements about blind obedience and supposed good intentions.
 
The comment about the documents “not calling for many of the changes they implemented” is an oft repeated comment.

That seems to indicate (to whomever started that comment in existence, decades ago) that there was/is a gross understanding both of the history of the document and what the intent of the Constitution was.

The history of the creation of the 16 documents of Vatican 2 is well laid out in “The Rhine Flows Into The Tiber”, by Fr. Ralph M. Wiltgen, SVD, and is far too extensive to lay out here. However, like any document coming out of a Council (and for that matter, any legislation coming out of a legislative body) is almost always the result of long discussions and compromises. ’

Further, the Constitution did not intend or attempt to lay out entirely what the bishops proposed. It was like a general sketch, giving direction and intent, and leaving the details to be worked out later. And what needs to be separated out is the issue of catechesis of children, a topic unto itself and not mandated at all by the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy.

As an additional comment, there seems to be in general an assumption that anything which happens in the Church (such as rule changes) comes from the top, down. That ignores the fact that there can be an upwelling from the bottom, up, which finally results in a rule change. The vernacular appears to be one of those issues, although it has not formally resulted in any specific rule change (that is, “Latin having pride of place”).
 
It also says something about taking the beam out of one’s own eye before removing the splinter from one’s brother’s eye.
 
Actually, you would be hard pressed to find, for example, John Paul 2 or Benedict 16 referencing Modernism. It was, in large part, a failure to articulate what was being reacted to by Rome at the time, in clear and cogent terms, and was largely due to a reaction to Protestant Scripture scholarship in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. which was fast moving to remove God and Revelation from any consideration in the Bible, and was leading to Atheism.

The term has been very abused, as in the last 50 years it has led to the condemnation of anything that those using the term either did not understand, or disagreed with, including liturgical changes.
 
That ignores the fact that there can be an upwelling from the bottom, up, which finally results in a rule change.
Sometimes the “upwelling from the bottom” are liturgical abuses, too. Repeating a mistake over and over in some provincial location does not make the mistake into the authority.

In the cases of disciplines–that is, liturgical customs that could be done in more than one way–it is rightly part of the pastoral authority of the bishops to determine which proposed liturgical changes are advisable or will be allowed. For instance, the first liturgical language switch was not the switch from Latin to other languages, but rather first from Aramaic to other vernacular languages, then to Greek, and then from Greek to Latin.

What has always been true, however, it is that it has been the bishops who determined the rules of liturgy as part of their pastoral duty and prerogative. That requires the bishop to listen to the people, but it does not require the bishop to follow along with whatever they want. No, the liturgy follows what bishops discern is in the interest of their local churches.

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans
 
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To which you can add the address by Maximos IV Saigh, the Melchite Patriarch of Antioch, who addressed the Council during debate on the schema on Liturgy.

From “The Rhine Flows Into The Tiber”: He noted that Christ himself had spoken the language of his contemporaries, and that the Apostles had maintained this practice. “Never could the idea have come to them that in a Christian gathering the celebrant should read the texts of Holy Scripture, sing psalms, preach or break bread, and at the same time use a language different from that of the community gathered there.” p. 27
 
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For instance, the first liturgical language switch was not the switch from Latin to other languages, but rather first from Aramaic to other vernacular languages, then to Greek, and then from Greek to Latin.
I did not realize this- do you have a reference for this?

I would have thought that Hebrew would have been the first liturgical language, as it was the language the Jewish people have always used to worship and the apostles were Jews
 
Having been raised in the EF prior to Vatican 2, and having been an altar boy attending Masses that were said by a priest who suffered from a serious problem with alcohol, I have had the occasion to attend EF Masses which were lacking in reverence; likewise, having endured some of the chaos after Vatican 2, I have attended OF Masses that were lacking in reverence.

Neither Mass is intrinsically more reverent than the other; reverence in the Mass is subject to how the priest celebrates it.

Both Masses result in the Eucharist; neither is more or less holy than the other.

The EF has more complicated and elaborate rubrics. But that, in itself does not make it more reverent than the OF; and the reverse is also true; the OF has less complicated rubrics, but that does not make it more (or less) reverent than the EF…
 
My reference was primarily to the use of the vernacular, and the general comment in the Constitution as to the use of the vernacular. People took to the vernacular like ducks to water.

I am not a liturgist (nor a terrorist), but I suspect that a bishop might be able to require that the three prayers be said in Latin, in the OF. Perhaps some do. It has been my experience (and that has not been farther east than North Dakota) that exceedingly few parishes use Latin for those prayers. My recollection is that the cathedral in Salt Lake does (or did, several years ago). It has been a few years since I attended the Chrism Mass in Oregon, and I simply don’t recall if Latin was used then or not.

But it is my strong impression that, lacking direction from the bishop, parishes are generally likely to not use Latin (the East Coast may be more formal).
 
Well, if you want to get really technical, you are likely somewhat right; the earliest Church liturgy was bifurcated. On Saturday they went to synagogue - and my understanding is that the readings from what we call the Old Testament were in Hebrew (from the scrolls); they then met again on Sunday for the Breaking of the Bread (Eucharist) - in Aramaic, as that was the common language.
 
I presume you know the difference - but for those who don’t:

You can negotiate with a terrorist. 🤣
 
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