Allowing open marriage...does it become my sin?

[LostInNY]

Thank you all for your replies. I admit I’m overwhelmed by the responses…I had given up about my leaving him but you’re making me rethink things a bit.

Here’s my issue with annulment. What becomes of my children? If the marriage never was valid nor happened, that makes my children illegitimate. How could I possibly do that to them?? If in the eyes of God the marriage is invalid, that means my children didn’t happen.

As for my husband I emailed him last night. I told him that I wouldn’t give my consent, but as an adult with free will he was going to do what he wanted. That the best I could do for him as his wife was to pray that God would turn him on the right path, and to pray for his soul as I do when I pray anyways. Lastly I closed with what if the children find out…which is his biggest fear…and what would happen if his employer found out (they all know me there and know him as a “family man”), so I am hoping that this will sway him to at least not step out physically. At least after seeing your replies I feel that my conscience is clear on this. I do have a meeting set up with my priest next week and will bring all these new developments up, though, along with my reply to him and what my husband said (if anything).

I doubt I would ever remarry. I met him at 18 (first boyfriend), married him a few years later. I made my vows before God and a piece of paper won’t change that. At my age, I doubt seriously I would find someone interested in me anyways, so if I were to leave, it would probably be a “regular” divorce. I can’t see making my kids illegitimate just to pave the way for my getting married again in the future.

 

[pensmama87]

Here’s my issue with annulment. What becomes of my children? If the marriage never was valid nor happened, that makes my children illegitimate. How could I possibly do that to them?? If in the eyes of God the marriage is invalid, that means my children didn’t happen.

This is not true. From the Church’s point of view, having your marriage declared null will not affect your children at all. They still exist, their sacraments are valid, and they don’t lose any “standing” in the church. (It used to be that if a child was born out of wedlock, it was an impediment to being ordained, but even then it could be dispensed and I doubt it applied to cases where the couple thought they were married but discovered through the annulment process that they were not.)

“Legitimacy” is a legal issue only.

 

[CatholicRaven]

Thank you all for your replies. I admit I’m overwhelmed by the responses…I had given up about my leaving him but you’re making me rethink things a bit.

Here’s my issue with annulment. What becomes of my children? If the marriage never was valid nor happened, that makes my children illegitimate. How could I possibly do that to them?? If in the eyes of God the marriage is invalid, that means my children didn’t happen.

… I can’t see making my kids illegitimate just to pave the way for my getting married again in the future.

Declaring that a marriage was invalid is not the same as saying it didn’t happen. It is not saying that your children “didn’t happen” or are somehow illegitimate or “damaged goods.” They are certainly not.

And neither are you.

I agree with the other poster who said that you are not seeing this from a “normal” perspective. You are thinking from within, under the influence of your current situation and your husband, and it’s very difficult to see just how abnormal your marriage is, because you haven’t experienced anything better.

Sweetheart, please understand that there is only so much we can do from a message board, but we are trying to tell you that you are worthy of love, and you are loved by God, and that real love is nothing like the relationship you have with the man you married. Your husband may show you some “affection” in public when he’s being watched, but he is not really loving you. John Wooden said, “The true test of a man’s character is what he does when no one is watching.”

If you receive a decree of nullity in future, you don’t need to “label” your children as “illegitimate” (the Church doesn’t). You don’t even necessarily need to apply for an annulment right now (or ever, if you so choose). But don’t use the kids as a reason to allow someone else to treat you as a doormat. Or to treat yourself as one, either–buy yourself some nice clothes, take care of yourself as you would take care of your loved ones. “Love your neighbor as yourself”… if you have no love for yourself, how can you truly love your neighbor?

We should sacrifice for our families, yes… but we can best do that when at least our basic needs are met. For it to be loving, a sacrifice should be a choice, not a way to avoid something worse (mother’s disapproval, husband’s anger, the fear of being alone, etc.). I don’t know if that applies to you, but it’s something to keep in mind.

I agree that you should probably speak with a different priest, get treatment for your medical issues, and possibly speak to someone at a women’s shelter.

Remember that God equips the called. He will give you the tools and the grace you need to see you through. It will not always be easy, there may be many hurdles… but it will be worth it. I know you probably can’t see that right now; you have no idea what the future will hold (none of us really do). You can only trust in God to lead you.

It’s easy to see that you love your children very much, so I know that you can do what is best for them–if only you can truly see what that is! I pray that God lets you clearly see the right path, and gives you the grace to take it!

 

[Elena321]

Wow.
This is the reason why I don’t like the notion of Catholic/Christian men seeking a “passive” wife.
In other words,your upbringing and parents relationship has influenced your decisions more then you realise and is partly why you would have been “drawn” to this type of man.

Im glad you emailed your husband and said you wouldn’t agree to what hes asking.
For you to agree,would be highly disrespectful to you and would also teach your daughter that its ok for men to treat women-including her-this way.

It seems like your husband has an unhealthy relationship towards sex and that he sees it purely as a physical thing cut off from emotions and love.

Im curious,why would you even consider it a possibility to consider agreeing to him sleeping with other women?

Whether you stay or leave is a decision that needs a lot of thought but shouldn’t be based on the concept that no other men are going to want to be with you due to your age because that might not be true.
Older people do still fall in love and get married.

 

[awsiukiewicz]

My heart is breaking for you. What you are describing is an abusive marriage. You were raped and your husband is the one who invited this man in. This is not a marriage you need to or should be living in.

Is there someway you can get connected to a mental health professional to talk this over with? From what you said it seems you have very little self esteem. Perhaps you grew up in an abusive environment and don’t know what it is like to be treated with love?

It is absolutely not ok for you to tell your husband one night stands are acceptable. Please see help from others so you can grow stronger and get out of this marriage. Also, seek help for the rape that happened to you. That is extremely traumatic.

 

[awsiukiewicz]

I totally disagree with consulting a mental health professional…I work in the mental health field and in 1973 the APA, alongwith the AMA deleted homosexuality from the DSM…no longer considered pathologic…the mental heatlh community is extremely liberal in thought…I sat in on a group where a patient was told to masturbate if he was lonely…this is a mindset like you could not begin to imagine…I believe that you are very misguided in yr allegiance to your husband…you, my dear need counsleing also but from a strong Christian…preferably Catholic couselor to get yorself to feel better about yourself…the fact that you husband does not touch you…would probably be grounds for an anulment…move on with your life…don’t be afraid of no financial support…I must admit I am suprised at your rather nonchalant attitude about this matter…I will pray for you…sorry if I seem less than empathetic I just feel for you…

 

[CatholicRaven]

the fact that you husband does not touch you…would probably be grounds for an anulment…

No, it’s not grounds for an annulment.

That is not to say that she wouldn’t have grounds, but that the fact that he’s currently withholding sex doesn’t make a marriage invalid at the time of their vows.

(I’ll get down off my soapbox now.)

OP, still praying for you.

 

[GenerationHV]

I did speak to an attorney about 5 years ago (maybe 6). It was his opinion that my husband would get primary custody because of my health issues, lack of support locally, history of suicide attempt (I tried about a year after our daughter was born, 2 years after the rape), etc. I’d rather crawl through Hell itself on my hands and knees than allow my husband sole custody.

My priest has told me to just pray, stick it out, that I made vows before God, that God will provide him guidance and I should stand by him, etc…but I haven’t discussed this open marriage/he wants to step out aspect. Yes, he knows about the rape. We prayed together on it a lot…and I am so thankful for the peace I have found with regards to that.

I do wonder if husband wanting to step out (or if/when he acts on it)that will change his opinion.

Praying for you.
This custody stuff is very important info. So I will not encourage you to divorce and allow him to raise your children with a never ending parade of flewsies. But in your first post you wrote you were “great friends” with him and he was a great Dad. Can you elaborate on that? I’m finding it hard to wrap my head around the man you described being friendly or great in any way. You also mentioned you emailed him. Do you speak to each other in the house? Have dinner with the kids?

 

[LostInNY]

Praying for you.
This custody stuff is very important info. So I will not encourage you to divorce and allow him to raise your children with a never ending parade of flewsies. But in your first post you wrote you were “great friends” with him and he was a great Dad. Can you elaborate on that? I’m finding it hard to wrap my head around the man you described being friendly or great in any way. You also mentioned you emailed him. Do you speak to each other in the house? Have dinner with the kids?

He and I met and were friends for a while before taking the next step. We have similar likes as far as sports, movies, etc. He’s friendly, he’s always there for the kids - never misses games, practices, concerts, recitals (barring business travels but he’s missed maybe 3 between both kids…ever). He doesn’t raise a hand to any of us, is firm but fair in discipline, tries to keep his temper under control when watching sports, etc. He has stood by me in the face of a lot of health issues - brain tumors, uterine cancer, epilepsy, etc. There were times he had to be a caretaker physically because I couldn’t move. It is his behavior towards ME in the privacy of the bedroom (or lack thereof) that is the issue here. But as for the children, he’s been a very good father. It IS hard to reconcile, and on more than one occasion I’ve asked him what he would feel if our daughter one day described her spouse doing to her what he’s done…no reply.

I would say my health was an issue, except the issues, as well as the rape, all occurred before I got sick.

Perhaps it’s that I resigned myself to my current status, but I’ve reached the point where I can be friendly towards him, where we communicate and parent effectively, etc. We function as a “normal” couple…if there is such a thing. Our only issue is our personal relationship, and as you’ve seen, it’s been a doozy.

As a prior priest had put it to me, my personal “suffering” should be offered to God and for the souls of purgatory, but I shouldn’t break up my family because my “needs” aren’t met. We’ve had 2 kids, and cannot have any more children. So sex isn’t really a “need”. This was echoed by my current priest. And that’s how I handle things - I pray, I cope, I concentrate on the good in him and hope that someday things will change, but thankful for the little things.

He still has not replied to my email; however, I also know he hasn’t acted on it. Perhaps he was testing me, perhaps the email changed his mind…I don’t know.

I thank you all for your prayers. I do feel calmer now and more at peace.

 

[LostInNY]

No, it’s not grounds for an annulment.

That is not to say that she wouldn’t have grounds, but that the fact that he’s currently withholding sex doesn’t make a marriage invalid at the time of their vows.

(I’ll get down off my soapbox now.)

OP, still praying for you.

The only possible grounds I could find would be that in viewing the content of his computer I’ve found material which shows homosexual or bisexual leanings, which he said he had none in our marriage counseling survey. The Church has copies of these results, and I have the pictures. He has never acted on these things physically, though.

 

[Virga]

As a prior priest had put it to me, my personal “suffering” should be offered to God and for the souls of purgatory, but I shouldn’t break up my family because my “needs” aren’t met. We’ve had 2 kids, and cannot have any more children. So sex isn’t really a “need”. This was echoed by my current priest. And that’s how I handle things - I pray, I cope, I concentrate on the good in him and hope that someday things will change, but thankful for the little things.

I’m sorry, but it’s unclear to me. Did these priests know about the rape or the open marriage situation? I just doubt this is the only advice they would give if they knew about these things. Yes, people should offer up their sufferings, but that doesn’t mean they have to quietly accept others hurting them as you have been. Allowing yourself to be treated this way is not what God would want. At the very least, get counseling for yourself to get a true sense of self-worth. God wants us to love everyone, including ourselves. God wants us to see Him in all people, and that includes you.

I wish you and your family all the best. I will pray for you.

 

[vsedriver]

Despite this, he and I are good friends and he is a good dad. He wants permission for “one-night-stands” just to get his kicks, but says he doesn’t want to leave me or the children.

doesn’t sound like he’s much of a friend to me. He may be just nice enough to keep you tied to him. The fact is you both need marriage counseling. If he won’t go then go yourself. It will help you decide how you want to be treated.

I have no means to provide for our kids, and I place very little value in myself that I would be able to provide for them or even get another husband.

Honey, that’s what alimony and child support are for. I don’t know how old your kids are but you could agree to remain till the kids go off to college. In my state, the longer you are together the longer you get to collect alimony.

But I don’t want to further destroy my soul, as prayer is one of the few things that has gotten me through so much pain. So, is this my sin or just his?

He is married to you and promised to be faithful to you. You have no power to agree or disagree with his actions. Simply tell him you expect him to keep his vows. If he doesn’t then it is all on him. But if you have any idea he is already cheating then you would be wise not to have sexual relations with him. You could end up with a nasty disease.

 

[LostInNY]

I’m sorry, but it’s unclear to me. Did these priests know about the rape or the open marriage situation? I just doubt this is the only advice they would give if they knew about these things. Yes, people should offer up their sufferings, but that doesn’t mean they have to quietly accept others hurting them as you have been. Allowing yourself to be treated this way is not what God would want. At the very least, get counseling for yourself to get a true sense of self-worth. God wants us to love everyone, including ourselves. God wants us to see Him in all people, and that includes you.

I wish you and your family all the best. I will pray for you.

Yes they knew/know about the rape/the swinging incident, but not the latest request to be allowed to get a call girl/lover on the side. I had made an appointment and had to reschedule when my youngest became sick with a bad stomach bug, so I will be going Friday. I asked for and received forgiveness for going along with the swinging in the first place all those years ago based off of how I was raised (that I was to do whatever my husband wanted me to in order to keep him happy, which was naïve but came from good intentions per the priest(s) )…and as for the rape it took a while but I made my peace about it. The part I was posting help with was his request to have an open marriage where he could have a girlfriend or get an escort, and whether or not I should consent to such a thing.

I went to “regular” counseling - each time was told to leave my husband and was handed an anti-depressant prescription. This wasn’t what I needed. They didn’t seem interested in talking - just in prescribing meds and moving on to the next person.

I agree wholeheartedly that I need to work on my self esteem/self worth.

 

[LostInNY]

doesn’t sound like he’s much of a friend to me. He may be just nice enough to keep you tied to him. The fact is you both need marriage counseling. If he won’t go then go yourself. It will help you decide how you want to be treated.

Honey, that’s what alimony and child support are for. I don’t know how old your kids are but you could agree to remain till the kids go off to college. In my state, the longer you are together the longer you get to collect alimony.

He is married to you and promised to be faithful to you. You have no power to agree or disagree with his actions. Simply tell him you expect him to keep his vows. If he doesn’t then it is all on him. But if you have any idea he is already cheating then you would be wise not to have sexual relations with him. You could end up with a nasty disease.

There’s no sexual relations and he’s made it pretty clear there will never be any with me again. I did tell him that in the email (about the vows) and have said so before. He has no intentions of going to counseling…my counseling sessions were not very helpful. I found greater peace in regular talks with my priest at the time of the rape and with a nun. My current priest has been great, too, especially with all the health issues.

The staying til the kids are gone deal is what I’m aiming for. Once they go, barring any major health setbacks, I’ll go my own way.

 

[GenerationHV]

What you have is really awful but it sounds like staying until the kids are up and out is best for the kids. Dr Laura would say agree to treat each other nicely to create an environment conducive to the kids happiness. Do you sleep in the same room and have meals together? Do you speak to each other or only email. His request was really ridiculous but one wonders why he would even ask. Liars and cheaters usually lie and cheat so I don’t get his motivation in asking you.
Again praying for you and your children.

 

[LostInNY]

What you have is really awful but it sounds like staying until the kids are up and out is best for the kids. Dr Laura would say agree to treat each other nicely to create an environment conducive to the kids happiness. Do you sleep in the same room and have meals together? Do you speak to each other or only email. His request was really ridiculous but one wonders why he would even ask. Liars and cheaters usually lie and cheat so I don’t get his motivation in asking you.
Again praying for you and your children.

We do sleep in the same bed/bedroom. We knew if we slept apart there would be questions. We make it a point to always have family meals, so other than the occasional meals where my daughter has to eat at the theater between performances or husband’s away on business, we eat all dinners together. We do speak and discuss “normal” things in front of the kids - schooling, discipline the few times we need to deal with something (they’re very good kids), etc. We’ve even had minor disagreements and resolved them in front of the kids. We both put them both to bed at night and drop them off at school in the morning.

I think he fears my leaving with the kids. He doesn’t know about the conversation with the lawyer. Somewhere in his twisted mind I suppose he thinks if he gets “permission” then there’s no chance I leave because I’m “okay” with it. His biggest fear isn’t losing me - it’s losing the kids.

So far…nothing. He even asked me to lunch recently, which hasn’t happened in a long time. So I’m not sure what to make of it. Half of me thinks maybe he’s turning a new leaf, and the other half thinks he’s playing nice to see if I’ll say yes instead. But he’s made no more mention of it. We will see.