Alms: who should and how much?

[love-bias]

Hi guys,
I’m a student who’s not exactly rich, but manage a nice life with what I do have. What I have is nice, but it’s a fixed income for now. I want to address and ask about something that seems to infinitely perplex me. Alms giving.

Where do I draw the line? If I feel like being perfectly selfish with what legally belongs to me and saying, “leave me alone, what I have is all for me,” is that wrong? I guess if it places me in personal harm to give, I’m not supposed to give; while if I have all I “need” and still have more, I should give to the one who asks? Jesus said “give to the one who asks.”

What are the limits; and what are the obligations? Thank you! ~Jason

P.s. maybe you could share experiences/case examples.

 

[nsper7]

I think St. Peter and St. Paul address the issue very well:

In Acts 5, when St. Peter is addressing Ananias (who had sold land and promised that he had given all the proceeds to the Jerusalem Church) and says, "Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Thus, rule one: if you have promised to donate X amount of money, then fulfill your promise.

Here is what St. Paul says, “Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:6-7)

Whatever you do give should be given because you truly want to, not because you feel like you have to. Other than that, it really is up to you I think.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I don’t know enough to comment on any requirements that might exist- I’ll leave that to others. I will tell you a little about my own experience with this, though.

Generosity is a gift from God, a fruit of the Spirit. It’s one that I pray for frequently. And I do give a little to causes I care about. I don’t have much money. I plan to give more when I have a job (full time student right now).

My main spiritual experience with the Lord involving charity was in France. I wasn’t used to dealing with poor people at all, and this one homeless guy asked me if I’d buy him a sandwich for his lunch. I didn’t want to buy him a sandwich, but I proposed to buy him a baguette. He insisted on a sandwich. I asked him which, and he pointed to the most expensive one. I bought it for him, because Jesus urged charity very strongly in the Gospels.

Afterward, though, I felt very irritated because I knew I’d been hustled. The guy had been extremely pushy, and I hate being pushed around, especially when I’m doing the person a favor anyway. So I was feeling grumpy.

I prayed to the Lord for his will on this matter and then opened the Bible at random. The Bible verse my finger fell randomly on as soon as I opened the book said, “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

That frames my current perspective on charity. I’ve seen how some people can just give whatever they have with joy, and doing so creates joy in both them and in the people they give too. As the scripture says, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” For them, they feel that joy more when they give than when they receive, and that is what God was talking about.

So I think we should pray for this great gift of godly generosity. I’ve seen it coming from other people and it is stunningly beautiful, when they truly give from their hearts, rather than giving because they feel obligated to do so. That gift of giving generously from the heart is what we should seek and pray for, I think. It creates such joy and holiness in givers I’ve seen.

 

[love-bias]

wow Lief that’s a pretty neat experience to open the Bible and find the message like that.

Sometimes I give, just to try and escape my “selfhood.” I try so hard to imagine what it’s like to be someone else, other than me. Giving is sometimes painful for me, I admit, but it has a profound and mysterious way of connecting me and getting me outside of my internal “quiet desparation.” Sometimes it’s fun to give when you really can’t afford to: such has a way of really make you feel what you’ve just done, feel your connectedness and part in the family of humanity.

I’m not sure if there is a perfect formula for when and how much should be given. Maybe that’s a good thing though–we’re not made to be robots, after all. It’s an in-the-moment kind of deal. Perhaps it is the Holy Spirit Who governs when and how much to give, depending on each unique situation.

What if they spend it all on booze? Maybe I should forgo the money and just help them get set-up with the local homeless shelter. Maybe both.

I appreciate all posts. I liked all that I’ve read. Thank you. ~Jason

 

[joseph_virgen]

in my youth i always looked into my wallet to make sure i didn’t give to much. that lasted for many years. one day i learned Truth as told by the teachings of the Nazarene. knowingly, it was The Widow’s Offering that opened my eyes and heart.

as he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting putting their gifts into the temple treasury. he also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. " I tell you the truth," he said, “this poor widow has put more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

we give to alliviate the suffering of the poor, the sick and the lonely, and we should give out of love, not of guilt. ultimately, the gift represents our relationship to the Nazarene.

 

[joseph_virgen]

in my youth i always looked into my wallet to make sure i didn’t give to much. that lasted for many years. one day i learned Truth as told by the teachings of the Nazarene. knowingly, it was The Widow’s Offering that opened my eyes and heart.

as he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting putting their gifts into the temple treasury. he also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. " I tell you the truth," he said, “this poor widow has put more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

we give to alliviate the suffering of the poor, the sick and the lonely, and we should give out of love, not of guilt. ultimately, the gift represents our relationship to the Nazarene.

 

[joseph_virgen]

in my youth i always looked into my wallet to make sure i didn’t give to much. that lasted for many years. one day i learned Truth as told by the teachings of the Nazarene. knowingly, it was The Widow’s Offering that opened my eyes and heart.

as he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting putting their gifts into the temple treasury. he also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. " I tell you the truth," he said, “this poor widow has put more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

we give to alliviate the suffering of the poor, the sick and the lonely, and we should give out of love, not of guilt. ultimately, the gift represents our relationship to the Nazarene.

 

[bengal_fan]

Alms: who should and how much?

Everyone.

as much as it is possible to give. meaning, we all really need to rethink what we NEED to survive. above that, we really should give so that everyone has those needs met. until everyone has those needs met, keeping extra is sin in my opinion.

i try to give to anyone who asks. my wife and i live very simply (working towards more and more simply as our faith increases i hope and pray). we do not have savings because we feel it is wrong to keep when others don’t have. whenever we have had a need, some one else has had the means to help us. when they have been in need, we have been able to help them. amazing how God works huh?

 

[nsper7]

as much as it is possible to give. meaning, we all really need to rethink what we NEED to survive. above that, we really should give so that everyone has those needs met. until everyone has those needs met, keeping extra is sin in my opinion.

While you’re choice is admirable, you have yet to show conclusively from Scripture that your view is correct and, further, neither the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox or any mainstream Protestant denomination agrees with your statement that ‘keeping extra is sin’; thus, I would strongly urge you to refrain from making those sorts of statements. By making those sorts of statements, you go against 2 Corinthians 9:7 and risk leading people to give out of a sense of compulsion.

 

[love-bias]

I always enjoy hearing new points to ponder for life. I think it’s fascinating to hear how *bengal_fan *has shaped his life with his convictions. That’s very inspiring; especially with all the conveniantly-devout cafeteria Catholics I’ve run across. Granted, some convictions aren’t universal–I think we’re each special in our own way.

I appreciate knowing now that there is nothing conclusive about keeping extra. I mean, Job, Solomon, and others were wealthy yet were honored and surely went to heaven.

I think it could be possible to overemphasize material economy in the role of Salvation. Salvation is key, above all, I’m thinking. Didn’t the Church’s rejection of Liberation Theology have something to do with something like that? I mean salvation is, in my opinion, way more than food/shelter.

I’m currently looking at it this way: instances wherein one can give money are moreover opportunities to make a positive impact in a life(s) so as to show more clearly the way of Salvation or Jesus, to unfortunate others. --An opportunity for something even greater than what the poor person is really asking for or what s/he thinks s/he is asking for at that moment.

It seems to me that an opportunity to “give a sandwich” is actually meant to be a little more. Perhaps it is the Divine Providence/Destination which is asking, in between the lines, for something higher which we, as enlightened Catholics, can help with… nudge them in a higher Spiritual direction.

If we give, no matter how much or how little, without showing them in some way or another the way to God, isn’t that pointless? Maybe I’m wrong, not sure.

I like all the posts. I hope what I said made sense. I’m trying my best to sound smart and hide my ignorance in these matters. ~Jason

 

[mmyers]

Everyone.

as much as it is possible to give. meaning, we all really need to rethink what we NEED to survive. above that, we really should give so that everyone has those needs met. until everyone has those needs met, keeping extra is sin in my opinion.

i try to give to anyone who asks. my wife and i live very simply (working towards more and more simply as our faith increases i hope and pray). we do not have savings because we feel it is wrong to keep when others don’t have. whenever we have had a need, some one else has had the means to help us. when they have been in need, we have been able to help them. amazing how God works huh?

This may be the way to your sanctification and while beautiful it is not universal. Not everyone achieves sanctification through the same means, economically or otherwise. My family has been put in a position to do good in a different way. My husband is a professional and while we keep his professional image, we also live simply behind the scene. We have been given the opportunity to discuss our faith with people who would have not otherwise had a Catholic influence. We are living how we feel God has called us to live. We have savings and investments because we are both in finance and have been given the intellect to deal with these things…we are not only doing good with our current income, but we are planning to do more with our future returns. We are not hoarding, we are being prudent.

God may call you to sactification through the way you are living, but God calls all types and He can use you wherever you are.

Everybody has a different vocation and a different path and the reason that the Church does not say that your way of giving everything away is the only way is because it is not. So therefore your accusation that keeping money is a sin is simply not true.

I think that when it comes to giving, as with many things, it involves prayer…God may lead you to more prudence with your money in the way of savings…He may also lead you to stretch yourself a little and give up some luxury for the benifit of someone else. Thomas Aquianas has many writings on alms giving that are inspiring. The basket that they pass around at Church is not a disruption, but a continuation of the prayer of the Mass and it is something to consider when creating your financial plan.

 

[bengal_fan]

While you’re choice is admirable, you have yet to show conclusively from Scripture that your view is correct and, further, neither the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox or any mainstream Protestant denomination agrees with your statement that ‘keeping extra is sin’; thus, I would strongly urge you to refrain from making those sorts of statements. By making those sorts of statements, you go against 2 Corinthians 9:7 and risk leading people to give out of a sense of compulsion.

i showed it pretty well in the other thread. you just don’t like my interpretation and that is fine. when we stand before God and He asks you why you didn’t clothe Him or feed Him and the like and you say because you were enjoying the abundance He gave you…

well, you get the picture.

that’s fine that none of those denominations agrees completely with me. i am not leading anyone anywhere except to the higher way. if people give out of compulsion, that is not my problem. if they choose to give out of love of neighbor and God, then that is the best way. either way, the poor get fed. they don’t get fed when those who have don’t give to those who have not.

i have never once said that people should give out of compulsion, that is your interpretation of the standard which is given in scripture by Jesus and the apostles as well as the earliest church. Jesus gave it and the church practiced it out of love for neighbor, not compulsion. thanks for the strong urging though. i’ll stick with trying to get people in our society to realize the incredible selfishness we exhibit by keeping what we don’t need when others have nothing. if the church isn’t going to be the light, who is? if true religion is taking care of orphans and widows and the church isn’t doing it, who will? i am not going to stop giving trying to hold myself and those who profess Christ to the highest standards.

if they want to go one playing their playstations and letting people sleep on the street, that is their choice, not mine.

 

[bengal_fan]

So therefore your accusation that keeping money is a sin is simply not true.
.

i said that keeping money when others have none is sin.

i really don’t have a problem with investments. i don’t have any but the idea of investing is not wrong per se. if the investment is used so that others have work and make money so they can invest and others can work and make money…etc. it is a good thing. the danger comes when we decide what to do with our returns. is the profit for us or will we use it for the good of the kingdom and our fellow man? the more money we get, the harder it is to give it away.

i’m sorry if i came off saying that all investments are wrong. they aren’t i do think “savings” can be wrong because that smacks of hoarding to me. investing in others is not wrong but we can’t even think of that money as ours… it’s purpose is to help others be employed and make money and supply needs and give and invest in others and the cycle continues.

but keeping money when others do not have their needs met is sin. i just don’t see how you get around having extra when others have none.

 

[nsper7]

i showed it pretty well in the other thread. you just don’t like my interpretation and that is fine. when we stand before God and He asks you why you didn’t clothe Him or feed Him and the like and you say because you were enjoying the abundance He gave you…

That kind of thought process is the kind that leads to compulsive giving. But, either way, read the context of Scripture before you go on the attack with a verse.


Has This Passage Ever Bothered You?
Matthew 25:31-46 - Works Salvation? by Bob Wilkin

but keeping money when others do not have their needs met is sin. i just don’t see how you get around having extra when others have none.

Again, only according to you, not according to any mainstream denomination. You cling to the Rich Young Ruler parable, while ignoring the other stories of those who were wealthy (such as Zaccheus, who was commended by Christ for his willingness to make restitution, but never called to give everything up, and Joseph of Arimathea).

Also, by declaring that not giving is a sin, you do lead to ‘giving out of compulsion’. And the very fact that people are warned not to give out of compulsion implies that not giving is not a sin (if it truly was sin to not give, would St. Paul concern himself about compulsion or would he say just do it).

 

[Swan]

While you’re choice is admirable, you have yet to show conclusively from Scripture that your view is correct and, further, neither the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox or any mainstream Protestant denomination agrees with your statement that ‘keeping extra is sin’; thus, I would strongly urge you to refrain from making those sorts of statements. By making those sorts of statements, you go against 2 Corinthians 9:7 and risk leading people to give out of a sense of compulsion.

Okay, gotta step in here. If you re-read Bengal’s post you will see that he clearly says “in my opinion” - he does not claim to be quoting dogma from ANY religion or denomiation. It is “his opinion” and he is clear on that. He also says this is his choice - he is not trying to force others to agree, he is simply saying what he believes and what he does. Give the guy a break already.

 

[nsper7]

Okay, gotta step in here. If you re-read Bengal’s post you will see that he clearly says “in my opinion” - he does not claim to be quoting dogma from ANY religion or denomiation. It is “his opinion” and he is clear on that. He also says this is his choice - he is not trying to force others to agree, he is simply saying what he believes and what he does. Give the guy a break already.

But when he declares that ‘but keeping money when others do not have their needs met is sin’, he does not preface that with an ‘in my opinion’ and, even if he did, should we relegate deciding what constitutes sin to mere personal opinion without a strong backing in Scripture? In the other thread where this argument really occurred, I thought that his Scriptural basis:

1. Ignored context
2. Drawn too broad a conclusions from the text (i.e. overgeneralization)
3. Read things into the text that are not readily or contextually apparent

I might add that my arguments are backed by other sources and I seek to use a proper a method of interpretation, although I am by no means an expert.

Also, by his use of such statements as:

when we stand before God and He asks you why you didn’t clothe Him or feed Him and the like and you say because you were enjoying the abundance He gave you…

and

but keeping money when others do not have their needs met is sin.

he is definitely trying to force others to agree through appeals of fear of judgment (a real cop out that seeks to toy with the reader’s emotions by forcing them to agree since, after all, most people fear going to Hell, which is the end of the goats and sheep parable). And you’ll notice my response to his misue of the Parable of the Goats and Sheep was to link to a better source (if someone else puts an argument better than I do, it makes sense for me to let them speak for themselves).

Until such time as he ceases to proclaim this issue as a sin issue (or until he convinces me that he is correct), I am going to argue against him.

 

[nsper7]

ADDED (too late to EDIT): I am sorry if I come off sounding prideful, arrogant or obnoxious. That was not my intention, but it irritates me to no end when people, to my mind at least, twist the Gospel message and start heaping stones around others necks. The OP, in this thread, is asking a legitimate question and, by bengal_fan starting to decree that if you have any extra money it is sin, he will confuse the OP and perhaps instill fear into him (thus causing him to potential to give out of compulsion). Having been on the receiving end of this kind Gospel twisting, I feel it is very important to challenge these kinds of claims since I think they damage people’s faith and lead to confusion.

It seems that in his zest (which I can commend, although disagree with his views) to promote what he thinks is loving, bengal_fan seems willing to sidestep Scripture (notice his response to 2 Corinthians 9:7: "if people give out of compulsion, that is not my problem. if they choose to give out of love of neighbor and God, then that is the best way.either way, the poor get fed. they don’t get fed when those who have don’t give to those who have not. "…well sorry, but that goes against St. Paul’s words) and logic (in the other thread, he contradicted himself when he talked about how Christians should only keep enough money for necessities but then latter claimed we should be self-sacrificial, even with resources used for necessities, and then hastily tried to bridge the two contradictory statements when called on them). It’s the old ‘I’m right, don’t confuse me with the facts’ mentality that seems to be rampant in certain parts of Christianity (esp. Fundamentalism). I see this in people I’m around (and I can sometimes fall prey to it myself…again, as I said earlier, I am not perfect nor am I an expert) where, in any other realm of discussion, they’re firmly entrenched in the importance of logic, keeping to the facts, context, etc., but once they cross into theology, all that goes out the window to be replaced by opinion and judgment.

 

[ribozyme]

But when he declares that ‘but keeping money when others do not have their needs met is sin’, he does not preface that with an ‘in my opinion’ and, even if he did, should we relegate deciding what constitutes sin to mere personal opinion without a strong backing in Scripture? In the other thread where this argument really occurred, I thought that his Scriptural basis:

1. Ignored context
2. Drawn too broad a conclusions from the text (i.e. overgeneralization)
3. Read things into the text that are not readily or contextually apparent

I might add that my arguments are backed by other sources and I seek to use a proper a method of interpretation, although I am by no means an expert.

Also, by his use of such statements as:

and

he is definitely trying to force others to agree through appeals of fear of judgment (a real cop out that seeks to toy with the reader’s emotions by forcing them to agree since, after all, most people fear going to Hell, which is the end of the goats and sheep parable). And you’ll notice my response to his misue of the Parable of the Goats and Sheep was to link to a better source (if someone else puts an argument better than I do, it makes sense for me to let them speak for themselves).

Until such time as he ceases to proclaim this issue as a sin issue (or until he convinces me that he is correct), I am going to argue against him.

Apparently you do not even understand the rudimentary aspects of Catholic eschatology, or you haven’t read your link.

Matthew 25:31-46 is thus a judgment passage which deals with survivors of the** tribulation**. Believers who survive won’t appear at the judgment seat of Christ. (Neither, by the way, will those who become believers during the millennium. They will evidently be judged at the end of the millennium. While we can’t be certain, I imagine that Old Testament saints will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ – or possibly immediately before or after it.) Similarly, unbelievers who survive the tribulation evidently won’t appear at the Great White Throne Judgment. Matthew 25:41-46 records their final judgment – **1000 years **before that of Satan and his angels and the unsaved dead at the end of the Millennium (cf. Revelation 20:11-15). The uniqueness of this judgment, unlike the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment, is that believers and unbelievers will be judged at the same time and place.

I do not think many people agree with that interpretation or Tim LaHaye’s interpretation. So because you believe the Last Judgment is a judgment for survivors of the non-existent (in Catholic eschatology) “tribulation,” I suppose you are exempt from it.

Nice source for your “better link.” I do not think anyone on these forums are dispensationalists.

 

[nsper7]

Apparently you do not even understand the rudimentary aspects of Catholic eschatology, or you haven’t read your link.

I do not think many people agree with that interpretation or Tim LaHaye’s interpretation. So because you believe the Last Judgment is a judgment for survivors of the non-existent (in Catholic eschatology) “tribulation,” I suppose you are exempt from it.

Nice source for your “better link.” I do not think anyone on these forums are dispensationalists.

I might point out that I am not Roman Catholic and neither is bengal_fan. And, perhaps, I did not choose the best link to respond to b_f’s words. The whole crux of the argument stems on one word in Matthew 25:32:
Matthew 25:32 (NIV):

All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

The question is who these ‘nations’ spoken of being judge by Jesus are? The Greek word translated as ‘nations’ is ‘ethnos’ (which is also translated as gentiles). It is never used by Jesus to describe people who are Saved, although St. Paul uses it to describe Gentile Christians. According to Strong’s Lexicon, in the OT (I would assume the Septuagint), ‘ethnos’ is used to describe “foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles”. Thus, further evidence that these are non-Believers.

A couple things to point out:

1. Usually judgment is connected to the Resurrection, why is there no mention of the Resurrection here? After all, it goes right from Christ returning to this judgment. Regardless of one’s eschatological views, this seems to imply that these are people who never died.
2. The issue of belief in Christ is never mentioned in regards to the judging of the goats and shape. Even if one believes that faith+works=Salvation, faith should be mentioned somewhere in there.

((I’ll post more later, but I am getting too tired to think straight))

 

[Swan]

ADDED (too late to EDIT): I am sorry if I come off sounding prideful, arrogant or obnoxious. That was not my intention, but it irritates me to no end when people, to my mind at least, twist the Gospel message and start heaping stones around others necks. The OP, in this thread, is asking a legitimate question and, by bengal_fan starting to decree that if you have any extra money it is sin, he will confuse the OP and perhaps instill fear into him (thus causing him to potential to give out of compulsion). Having been on the receiving end of this kind Gospel twisting, I feel it is very important to challenge these kinds of claims since I think they damage people’s faith and lead to confusion.

It seems that in his zest (which I can commend, although disagree with his views) to promote what he thinks is loving, bengal_fan seems willing to sidestep Scripture (notice his response to 2 Corinthians 9:7: "if people give out of compulsion, that is not my problem. if they choose to give out of love of neighbor and God, then that is the best way.either way, the poor get fed. they don’t get fed when those who have don’t give to those who have not. "…well sorry, but that goes against St. Paul’s words) and logic (in the other thread, he contradicted himself when he talked about how Christians should only keep enough money for necessities but then latter claimed we should be self-sacrificial, even with resources used for necessities, and then hastily tried to bridge the two contradictory statements when called on them). It’s the old ‘I’m right, don’t confuse me with the facts’ mentality that seems to be rampant in certain parts of Christianity (esp. Fundamentalism). I see this in people I’m around (and I can sometimes fall prey to it myself…again, as I said earlier, I am not perfect nor am I an expert) where, in any other realm of discussion, they’re firmly entrenched in the importance of logic, keeping to the facts, context, etc., but once they cross into theology, all that goes out the window to be replaced by opinion and judgment.

Thank you for this. I didn’t really mean to jump on you either. Perhaps we can relate to each other in that reading a lot of these posts, especially when you’re tired, can sometimes lead you to say things in a way you wouldn’t were you not so stressed. I suspect that there have been times when I was upset by posts read previously and ended up taking my frustration out on someone else, without meaning to, of course. I’ve even gotten confused about certain poster’s comments from one thread to another. And we just never know how what we say will be interpreted. We can only do our best.

Peace