Alphonsus worshipped Mary?

  • Thread starter Thread starter FrancesDS
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

FrancesDS

Guest
I need help. I have been shown a book written by Alphonsus Liguori and he writes that he worships Mary and that he knows she will save him.
I know that in other writings it is clear that he is faithful to church teaching. In his book “glories of Mary” I found that he even discusses how Jesus saves us and that he relies on Grace, etc.

But this section of this book presented to me is causing a lot of criticism in a conversation.
But using the explanation that worship simply means high reverence, in the 1700s in Italy I cannot find any proof this terminology was used in that context.
Also using explanation that often times because of the high reference given to Mary love language is used and we must understand the entire context. However, I also only have a picture of the page and cannot tell what book this is from. ( I am waiting for a response as to what book but I’m preemptively posting this question here so I can see if I can get some help for response in this conversation. )

Here is the picture – hope my attempt to upload works, this is my first time attaching something!

Thank you
 
FrancesDS said:
But this section of this book presented to me is causing a lot of criticism in a conversation.
But using the explanation that worship simply means high reverence, in the 1700s in Italy I cannot find any proof this terminology was used in that context.
Click to expand...
How about we do one better than 18th century Italy? Tell your interlocutor to read 1 Chronicles 29:20 to you. There, we see King David speaking to all the political and military leaders of Israel, and we see that “all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.” The Bible doesn’t indicate that the people of Israel did anything wrong. In other words, there is ‘worship’ that is proper to God (in the Catholic context, we’d call that ‘adoration’ or ‘latria’) and there is ‘worship’ (used in an archaic context) that is proper to creatures (we’d call that ‘dulia’ for saints and ‘hyperdulia’ for Mary). The kind of ‘worship’ due to humans might be called ‘to honor’ them, in contemporary language.
 
FrancesDS said:
I need help. I have been shown a book written by Alphonsus Liguori and he writes that … he knows she will save him.
Click to expand...
No – his salvation is in Christ. He’s talking about “his hopes of salvation”, not “his salvation.” Big difference there.

An example might be in order: let’s suppose that I’m starving, and desperately need food to survive. However, I know that I can’t get food on my own, and so I turn to you for help. My ‘salvation’ is the food – but my ‘hopes’ of getting there depend on you. You aren’t my salvation, then… rather, you’re the means by which I reach salvation. Christ is our salvation; Liguori’s hope for salvation leads by the path of his devotion to Mary. She aids him; but she doesn’t save him (nor does he claim she does).

Does this help?
 
Prayer by St. Alphonsus de Liguori

From the Glories of Mary

Most Holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to Thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day.

I venerate Thee, great Queen, and I thank Thee for the many graces Thou hast bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins.

I love Thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear Thee, I promise to serve Thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make Thee loved by others also. I place in Thee all my hopes for salvation; accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle, thou who art the Mother of mercy.

And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death. From Thee I implore a true love for Jesus Christ. Through Thee I hope to die a holy death. My dear Mother, by the love thou bearest to Almighty God, I pray Thee to assist me always, but most of all at the last moment of my life. Forsake me not then, until thou shalt see me safe in heaven, there to bless Thee and sing of thy mercies through all eternity. Such is my hope. Amen.

my copy says venerate? I’m searching for it in Latin.

Peace
 
FrancesDS said:
I need help. I have been shown a book written by Alphonsus Liguori and he writes that he worships Mary and that he knows she will save him.
I know that in other writings it is clear that he is faithful to church teaching. In his book “glories of Mary” I found that he even discusses how Jesus saves us and that he relies on Grace, etc.

But this section of this book presented to me is causing a lot of criticism in a conversation.
But using the explanation that worship simply means high reverence, in the 1700s in Italy I cannot find any proof this terminology was used in that context.
Also using explanation that often times because of the high reference given to Mary love language is used and we must understand the entire context. However, I also only have a picture of the page and cannot tell what book this is from. ( I am waiting for a response as to what book but I’m preemptively posting this question here so I can see if I can get some help for response in this conversation. )

Here is the picture – hope my attempt to upload works, this is my first time attaching something!
Thank you
Click to expand...
Hi,
Without Mary saying,“Yes. be it done unto me according to thy word”; we wouldn’t have Jesus to righteously and lovingly adore. Priest, since they are celibate (most of the time) do not have children. We are their children and they consider Mary their wife. Sometimes my husband will say he loves and adores me. Thank you God for my husband of near 48 years.
One of the commenters below gave you a scripture verse where in the OT, they were worshiping God and King David;
In dramatic love scenes has us worshiping the ground someone is walking on.
If you look up the word worship in google or a dictionary, you will probably have 2 to 3 uses for the word WORSHIP… 1=worship and adoration of to God. 2.Demanded worship of a demi-god dictator=Idi Amin and 3. worship for a dramatic love scene,i.e. AN AFFAIR TO REMEMBER" I just made that up because I am going bed.
in Christs love
tweedlealice
 
I have the 1888 copyrighted edition in .pdf format. The word worship does not appear.The original was written in “Italian”. What is the source in the picture?

Peace
 
There are different meanings to the word “worship”, especially in older English.

Judges in the UK used to be called “My Lord” and “Your Worship” but it doesn’t mean that we think they are God.

Worship can mean adore, venerate, revere, honor, etc.

-Tim-
 
Many times in older translations of texts one will come across such language. As others have pointed out, the “worship” spoken of here is not the same “worship” that is rendered to God alone. Rest assured- St. Alphonsus Ligouri was not an idolater. He had a burning love for Our Lord. In so many stories of the lives of the saints we see that a deep, sincere love for Our Lord is necessarily coupled with a devotion to and love for Our Lady. One cannot truly love Christ with saintly fervor without also loving His Blessed Mother.
 
tweedlealice said:
Priest, since they are celibate (most of the time) do not have children. We are their children and they consider Mary their wife.
Click to expand...
Is this true? Also, do priests wear bands on their ring fingers the way nuns do?

Thank you, I am asking this because I really don’t know the answers to this, not in any way sarcastic or snarky, I add that because several times before people mistook my questions as if they were nasty commentary.
 
schaeffer said:
Is this true? Also, do priests wear bands on their ring fingers the way nuns do?

Thank you, I am asking this because I really don’t know the answers to this, not in any way sarcastic or snarky, I add that because several times before people mistook my questions as if they were nasty commentary.
Click to expand...
Some do, it’s not universally practiced. Some wear a ring-rosary, it fits like a ring but has raised beads (usually 10) to keep count while praying.

Examples:
kmart.com/sterling-silver-rosary-ring-size-5/p-026V006910149000P
autom.com/items-rosaries/devotional-rosary-rings/Silver-Rosebud-Rosary-Ring-50-pk-VS311
savellireligious.com/us/393-anello-rosario-in-metallo-con-miracolosa.html
 
schaeffer said:
Is this true? Also, do priests wear bands on their ring fingers the way nuns do?

Thank you, I am asking this because I really don’t know the answers to this, not in any way sarcastic or snarky, I add that because several times before people mistook my questions as if they were nasty commentary.
Click to expand...
:banghead: No Priests DO NOT MARRY Mary!

They marry THE CHURCH! 👍
 
tweedlealice said:
Hi,
Without Mary saying,“Yes. be it done unto me according to thy word”; we wouldn’t have Jesus to righteously and lovingly adore. Priest, since they are celibate (most of the time) do not have children. We are their children and they consider Mary their wife. Sometimes my husband will say he loves and adores me. Thank you God for my husband of near 48 years.
One of the commenters below gave you a scripture verse where in the OT, they were worshiping God and King David;
In dramatic love scenes has us worshiping the ground someone is walking on.
If you look up the word worship in google or a dictionary, you will probably have 2 to 3 uses for the word WORSHIP… 1=worship and adoration of to God. 2.Demanded worship of a demi-god dictator=Idi Amin and 3. worship for a dramatic love scene,i.e. AN AFFAIR TO REMEMBER" I just made that up because I am going bed.
in Christs love
tweedlealice
Click to expand...
Alice, I have never heard a priest state he considers Mary as his wife. I do not believe this is correct. They consider Mary their spiritual Mother, not their wife. Please document where you heard this.
 
FrancesDS said:
I need help. I have been shown a book written by Alphonsus Liguori and he writes that he worships Mary and that he knows she will save him.
I know that in other writings it is clear that he is faithful to church teaching. In his book “glories of Mary” I found that he even discusses how Jesus saves us and that he relies on Grace, etc.

But this section of this book presented to me is causing a lot of criticism in a conversation.
But using the explanation that worship simply means high reverence, in the 1700s in Italy I cannot find any proof this terminology was used in that context.
Also using explanation that often times because of the high reference given to Mary love language is used and we must understand the entire context. However, I also only have a picture of the page and cannot tell what book this is from. ( I am waiting for a response as to what book but I’m preemptively posting this question here so I can see if I can get some help for response in this conversation. )

Here is the picture – hope my attempt to upload works, this is my first time attaching something!

Thank you
Click to expand...
First, remember this: St. Alphonsus Liguori, while a Saint and a Doctor of the Church…doesn’t speak for the Church.

Second, St. Alphonsus’s writings are extremely beneficial to the properly disposed; extremely challenging to those us (I include myself here) who aren’t quite at the depth of the faith that he wrote/spoke to;

Third, if it makes you feel itchy, don’t bother with it. He is not necessary to the Faith, and you don’t need to defend him–feel free to defer to the multitude of his fans.

Fourth, please don’t take that to mean that I distance myself from him–just pointing out that it is not necessary to defend him, certainly not his every word.

Fifth, as for defending him–very briefly, as good defenses have been posted above–I’d volunteer that there is no reverence too great for our celestial mother, the BVM–as any reverence to her, inures to her son, Christ, her spouse, the Holy Spirit, and Our Father, her and our, creator–i.e.–to the Blessed Trinity.

Worth noting–this is prophesied in the Bible–in the Magnifcat: “…my soul magnifies the Lord”-- and “…all generations shall call me blessed”. Mary draws us, directs us, and orients us to her Son.

So St. Alphonsus refers us to her, that we may be better drawn, directed, and oriented to Him (Christ), than he (St. Alphonsus, not Christ here) could do himself. Hence St. Liguori’s reverence is fruit of humility.

fwiw/jmho.
 
Rosary rings are an Irish custom that date back to the days when the English were in control, and the Irish often weren’t allowed to carry rosary beads or other Catholic stuff openly. Definitely not something for priests only!

I’ve certainly never heard the “priests marry Mary” thing. Probably something devotional is not being understood.

St. Alphonsus is doing a great job of moving the secular language of love poetry into the religious language of prayer. The young man picks the best possible older Lady for his pure service and devotion (in this case, Our Lady), and the older Lady encourages him to do great things in service to Her Son, the Lord. (In this case, the King of Heaven.)

As long as you understand this, you’ll get why he goes so far. St. Alphonsus is attractive to people who like to emphasize their points.
 
FrancesDS said:
I need help. I have been shown a book written by Alphonsus Liguori and he writes that he worships Mary and that he knows she will save him.
I know that in other writings it is clear that he is faithful to church teaching. In his book “glories of Mary” I found that he even discusses how Jesus saves us and that he relies on Grace, etc.

But this section of this book presented to me is causing a lot of criticism in a conversation.
But using the explanation that worship simply means high reverence, in the 1700s in Italy I cannot find any proof this terminology was used in that context.
Also using explanation that often times because of the high reference given to Mary love language is used and we must understand the entire context. However, I also only have a picture of the page and cannot tell what book this is from. ( I am waiting for a response as to what book but I’m preemptively posting this question here so I can see if I can get some help for response in this conversation. )

Here is the picture – hope my attempt to upload works, this is my first time attaching something!

Thank you
Click to expand...
I doubt the book is written by St. Liguori. The book looks to be part of a Missal or part of a separate book of Devotions. Notice the bottom of the page it says:

“His Holiness, Pope Pius IX., by an autograph rescript, Sept. 7, 1854, granted to all the faithful, every time that, with at least contrite heart and devotion, they shall say this prayer before an image or picture of the blessed Virgin: An Indulgence Of Three Hundred Days)”

I would suggest that it isn’t wise to comment on cited works unless you know the source.

However if you feel compelled, you should note that the English word for ‘worship’ covers a lot of ground. And, since Pope Pius IX thought so much of the prayer that he would give indulgences it wouldn’t be the kind of worship we reserve for God. Worship here has the same meaning as adore or adoration or venerate. The use of the word worship in this prayer is like the worship we give to dearest of friends, devoted in service (servitus, ie. worship.) Or like a child who worships the fireman or police man they might admire, they wish to act and be like this person. The child worships the fireman and hopes be like him when he is an adult, the spiritually mature worships Mary in an attempt to be like Mary, humble and faithful.

JoeT
 
FrancesDS said:
I need help. I have been shown a book written by Alphonsus Liguori and he writes that he worships Mary and that he knows she will save him.
Click to expand...
OK. I’ll bite. Could you please spell it out for us. Since the text says that he worships her, what exactly is the problem that you have with that?

Please keep in mind, that I was told today that my little girl (6 yo) worships her big brother (11 yo). She is well aware that he is not God.

Some folks like to get all technical and stuff when it comes to love.

But please spell out your concerns for us.
 
schaeffer said:
Is this true? Also, do priests wear bands on their ring fingers the way nuns do?

Thank you, I am asking this because I really don’t know the answers to this, not in any way sarcastic or snarky, I add that because several times before people mistook my questions as if they were nasty commentary.
Click to expand...
Nuns always wear rings. This may have changed now that they don’t always wear habits.
Priest and monks, I don’t think so. It is and inward love, Some may consider them their Spiritual Mother. But their is a deep devotion to her as she is the only woman allowed in their lives. Since joining CAF, I found out that parish priests don’t take a vow of celibacy. They make a promise. So much one hasn’t learn or forgot. It was interesting to find out all the churches that Templers built throughout Europe had the usual crucifix but they always had large statues of the Blessed Mother and the name of the church had Mary’s name in it.
From all the exposes on the Templers that I’ve seen, I feel their only sin was being wealthy. King Phillip VI of France and the Pope were broke and they wanted their money and accused them of blasphamy and did terrible things to them.One church is dedicated to the tomb of Christ by an Arn De Goth.I definitely went off on a tangent.Some priests may wear rings. Ask one of the Apologists that is a priest.

in Christ’slove
tweedlealice
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top