They certainly had the right intentions. They were trying to preserve you from heresy and from becoming indifferent to the error of Protestantism. While it may have been a bit too strict, the same would apply today.It was a bad idea back then it was pure bigotry between both Catholics and Protestants.
Jim
From the USCCBThey certainly had the right intentions. They were trying to preserve you from heresy and from becoming indifferent to the error of Protestantism. While it may have been a bit too strict, the same would apply today.
Vatican II and the Ecumenical Movement
The Ecumenical Movement: A School for Virtue
“The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council.” This first sentence of Unitatis Redintegratio, the Decree on Ecumenism (1964, #1) is still surprising to many Catholics.
Jim
But Jesus was referring only to One Church, the Catholic Church.Here I disagree with you completely. Protestant services have no value? Come on now. “Where ever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them.”
If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.”
Again, I wasn’t talking at all about ecumenism. Ecumenical services are completely different. They have nothing to do with simple attendance at Protestant services after Mass or when no Mass is available. Vatican II didn’t change that. If I go to a Sunday Protestant service after Mass, I am not being ecumenical. It isn’t ecumenical to suddenly ignore the heresies in Protestantism and the great danger that Protestant souls are in.From the USCCB
Jim
ComplineSanFran, and didn’t Pope Francis submit to being blessed by an Anglican bishop? I seem to recall a picture of the blessing being given to the Holy Father and he appeared to me to look very humble. Yet Fr Serpa speaks of heretical worship. So now I’m wondering if the Holy Father knew he was submitting himself to being blessed by a heretic?Thank you for saying these things. Good education moment.
Attached is a picture of Pope Benedict and Archbishop Rowan Williams during a service at Westminster Abbey.
Amenwe are actually the " via media" -middle way between Catholic and Protestant-
we really do not have “Also, there’s a lot of doctrinal weirdness in the Episcopal church.”
read our Catechism in the Book of Common Prayer -it is readable and really does not contain any “weirdness” the Pope Emeritus and the Rowan Williams (Emertius archbishop of Canterbury attended evensong together on a number of occasions)
we are Christians like you doing God’s work
Ya think?Also, there’s a lot of doctrinal weirdness in the Episcopal church.
Weaken our faith? Lead us to heresy and schism [from] Rome?Sorry to tell you this Jim be the ecumenical movement was rejected by the Church because it can weaken Our Faith and make us more open to protestant errors and lead us to heresy and schism form Rome.
Pope St. Pius X and Blessed Pius IX along with many other popes before Vatican II and even the Vactian 2 documents concerning ecumenism were very clear about it.
The goal of ecumenism is converting non Catholics to Catholicism
This is not what the Church teaches.True ecumenism needs to be understood by how the Early Church Fathers saw it St. Augustine said that a person can have all the sacraments, the Eucharist or even say amen but outside the Catholic Church there is no hope of salvation.
This is the Church’s command from Almighty God is that all those outside the True Faith should be bought into the Catholic Church for their salvation.
The only exception is ether if that person is in complete lack of knowledge about the Catholic Church and never heard about it.
Most protestants and orthodox in the western world and most people in the world today could come to Catholic Answers or EWTN and learn about the Catholic Faith and be converted.
They don’t do it because we as Catholics don’t have the courage to tell them the Truth and bring them lovingly into the Church as Christ wants us to do.
Wounds to unity
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Code:Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
Jim819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.
No, we’re not required to prove to them their doctrinal errors.I never accused modern day protestants or orthodox as guilty of the crime of schism or heresy.
But they do follow faiths that were created by men who abandoned communion with Rome that is a historical fact and when Catholics evangelize them we are required to bring it up and prove to them their doctrinal errors with quotes from the Bible, early church fathers and the Catechism.
The ecumenical movement since Vatican II has not worked at bringing us any closer to reunion with the protestants or orthodox churches.
You are very mistaken. There are many wonderful documents which express the opposite to what you assert and demonstrate the many bridges that have resulted from the work for Christian Unity.I never accused modern day protestants or orthodox as guilty of the crime of schism or heresy.
But they do follow faiths that were created by men who abandoned communion with Rome that is a historical fact and when Catholics evangelize them we are required to bring it up and prove to them their doctrinal errors with quotes from the Bible, early church fathers and the Catechism.
The ecumenical movement since Vatican II has not worked at bringing us any closer to reunion with the protestants or orthodox churches.
Your wording was rather offensive, yes. And remember that services in RC churches are sometimes other than the Eucharist. What is the difference between Evening Prayer or Vespers and an Anglican Evensong? Not much. And for those who attend Mass but do not take communion for some reason, the Episcopal Eucharist is virtually identical, including the readings.My apologies if I offended you as that was not my intention. I suppose I should change my wording to say that there is only some value, but from a Catholic perspective a Protestant service has very little value when compared to a Catholic service. In the Catholic service, we have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is the reoffering of the Sacrifice of the Cross in an unbloody manner. This has infinite value. Then we receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. People can gather anywhere to say prayers together, but that is not the same as offering sacrifice to God.
I don’t see what you mean by Protestants singing hymns better than Catholics do. Catholics have choirs and pipe organs like Protestants do. We even sing hymns in an ecclesiastical language. Everybody might not sing aloud with the choir, but that is not needed to participate in it.
I don’t take necessarily take every answer Fr Serpa gives as exactly correct. Because he lost me when I read that he said, "No, no. The answer is “NO!” in regard to whether a person can be a Catholic and pro choice.Fr. John was talking about the attendance of ecumenical Protestant services, not just every day services. Fr. Vincent notes this in his response, yet he clarifies it by saying the attendance of heretical services for the sake of worship and not for ecumenism is sinful. The Popes are acting ecumenically when they attend any Protestant service.
Wow! I remember my Pinewood Derby was held at a United Methodist church. And another Cub Scout event at the PCUSA church. But that would have been post-Vatican II. Then in later yrs after I had outgrown the Cub Scouts, I also remember the Catholic priest in town and the Presbyterian minister were best of friends and there was a ministerial association in my hometown and the priest and clergy from Protestant denominations met regularly over coffee and breakfast at the town’s local diner. And sometimes the Thanksgiving service was held at the Methodist church or the Presbyterian. And perhaps at a Baptist church. One time I remember it being held at the Catholic parish but it was smaller. We didn’t have an Episcopal church. There was one in the next town 5 mi away. But there were also a lot of other denominations but whose facilities were smaller. I know this wasn’t Sunday worship but I just wonder if today there is as much of a sense of community and a connection between Catholic priests and Protestant clergy. The Catholic church there now only has a visiting priest and where I am now, I haven’t noticed the same degree of ecumenicism between the Catholic priests and others but there may be and I’m just not aware of it.Yeah, long before Vatican II, you couldn’t even step foot into a protestant church.
I wasn’t allowed in the Cub Scouts back in the 50’s, because the den mother held the pack meeting in the basement of the local protestant church.
Jin
I should add that maybe this ecumenical spirit is alive and well higher up. Maybe it is just that I am in an area now where perhaps more of the parish priests tend to be a bit more rigid or stick more or less among themselves or I just don’t see it. Additionally I am not familiar with every Catholic priest in my area. There are a lot of Catholic parishes. As well as a lot of other churches and faith communities.Wow! I remember my Pinewood Derby was held at a United Methodist church. And another Cub Scout event at the PCUSA church. But that would have been post-Vatican II. Then in later yrs after I had outgrown the Cub Scouts, I also remember the Catholic priest in town and the Presbyterian minister were best of friends and there was a ministerial association in my hometown and the priest and clergy from Protestant denominations met regularly over coffee and breakfast at the town’s local diner. And sometimes the Thanksgiving service was held at the Methodist church or the Presbyterian. And perhaps at a Baptist church. One time I remember it being held at the Catholic parish but it was smaller. We didn’t have an Episcopal church. There was one in the next town 5 mi away. But there were also a lot of other denominations but whose facilities were smaller. I know this wasn’t Sunday worship but I just wonder if today there is as much of a sense of community and a connection between Catholic priests and Protestant clergy. The Catholic church there now only has a visiting priest and where I am now, I haven’t noticed the same degree of ecumenicism between the Catholic priests and others but there may be and I’m just not aware of it.
Your post brings back the happiest memories of being in my mother’s ancestral homeland, the United Kingdom, for visits/vacations across the years. Each time, it has always been a pleasure to accept the invitations I would receive from the various Anglican clergy I had known over the course of the years and to join them for some occasion or other coinciding with my visits. I always gladly accepted invitations for choral evensong, which never disappoints for its beauty.As to music, well, it must be said that modern day (Western) Catholics have lost their musical charm. I leafed through the book ‘Why Catholics Can’t Sing’ and it did ring true. I will match you an Episcopal church’s music any day. Lutherans too. We love our hymns and we sing them with gusto.
amazon.com/Why-Catholics-Cant-Sing-Catholicism/dp/0824511530