Alright to attend an Episcopal Church?

[JimR-OCDS]

Wow! I remember my Pinewood Derby was held at a United Methodist church. And another Cub Scout event at the PCUSA church. But that would have been post-Vatican II. Then in later yrs after I had outgrown the Cub Scouts, I also remember the Catholic priest in town and the Presbyterian minister were best of friends and there was a ministerial association in my hometown and the priest and clergy from Protestant denominations met regularly over coffee and breakfast at the town’s local diner. And sometimes the Thanksgiving service was held at the Methodist church or the Presbyterian. And perhaps at a Baptist church. One time I remember it being held at the Catholic parish but it was smaller. We didn’t have an Episcopal church. There was one in the next town 5 mi away. But there were also a lot of other denominations but whose facilities were smaller. I know this wasn’t Sunday worship but I just wonder if today there is as much of a sense of community and a connection between Catholic priests and Protestant clergy. The Catholic church there now only has a visiting priest and where I am now, I haven’t noticed the same degree of ecumenicism between the Catholic priests and others but there may be and I’m just not aware of it.

Well, this was back in 1958.

I was in Catholic School run by the Sisters of the Presentation. We were told from 1st grade on, never to go into a protestant church. We were told to avoid protestant children.

The ironic thing is, we use to walk past the protestant church as we went up to my parish school on the top of the hill.

Today, both the protestant church and the catholic parish is closed.

In fact, the protestant church is now a Buddhist Meditation Temple, with a 10ft statue of the Buddha in front.

God’s answer to the years of bigotry between Catholics and Protestants perhaps ?

How times have changed.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

True ecumenism needs to be understood by how the Early Church Fathers saw it

As understood and taught by the Catholic Church! It is for the Catholic Church - the Magisterium - with the authority given by Christ - to interpret and to teach etc.

Yes one must engage in proper Ecumenism etc and not brush differences under the rug - one must safeguard ones faith and others etc etc… But such is part of the Teaching and life of the Church.
*

To be Catholic is to be Ecumenical. *

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The 1st Sunday of Advent, my parish along with the two protestant churches, get together in what is called, “Lessons in Carols” Each year, a different church hosts the event, including my parish.

Each church has their music groups perform a Christmas Carol, which the entire church sings. In between, there is a reading from Scripture, beginning with the Old Testament in the promise of the coming Messiah.

It finishes with the birth of Jesus and all the music ministries and people join in together singing the final hymns.

Its beautiful.

Would never have happened 50 years ago.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

Was there “bigotry” at times in some places and persons on both sides? Sure …but it was not “pure bigotry”

But there were reasons (which still are valid in essence) at work too - the Church judges each age she is in and must make prudential judgments accordingly.

 

[Bookcat]

True ecumenism needs to be understood by how the Early Church Fathers saw it

What is “True ecumenism”?

As understood and taught by the Catholic Church!

It is for the Catholic Church - the Magisterium - with the authority given by Christ - to interpret and to teach etc.

Yes one must engage in proper Ecumenism etc and not brush differences under the rug - and yes one must safeguard ones faith and others etc etc…

But such is part of the Teaching and life of the Church.
*

To be Catholic is to be Ecumenical. *

 

[Bookcat]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Your post brings back the happiest memories of being in my mother’s ancestral homeland, the United Kingdom, for visits/vacations across the years. Each time, it has always been a pleasure to accept the invitations I would receive from the various Anglican clergy I had known over the course of the years and to join them for some occasion or other coinciding with my visits. I always gladly accepted invitations for choral evensong, which never disappoints for its beauty.

I remember once in particular I was in Oxford on a visit in connection with John Henry Cardinal Newman and the Anglican clergy at Christ Church Cathedral had graciously extended their hospitality for me to be at evensong during my stay. I knew it would be lovely, as indeed it was – and then the choristers began Allegri’s Miserere! Time seemed to just stop as they sang ever so perfectly this favourite piece that was written to be sung in just such a space. The passage of years and yet that incredible memory is quite undimmed.

Across the years, I have always been edified by the cordial relations in England between the Catholic Bishops under the Archbishop of Westminster and the Anglican Bishops under the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Certainly one of my most special memories is the arrangement between the Catholic Archdiocese of Westminster and the Anglican Diocese of Saint Alban by which Catholic Mass is offered weekly in the Anglican Cathedral of Saint Alban. Located at the site of the ancient Roman city of Verulamium and the site of the martyrdom of Britain’s protomartyr, Saint Alban, the venerable cathedral…once an abbatial church…is a singularly special place. It was very moving to have the privilege to offer a Mass there after the initiative began years ago. Happily, it is still going strong.

To see then with my own eyes, and indeed experience in my visits now in these latter years, in Britain as well as in North America, the fruit of Anglicanorum coetibus, as promulgated by Pope Benedict XVI, made me very happy indeed. It was the result of so much good work across so many years…work done in the dicasteries of the Holy See and also in the United States, too, in a very special way.

Thank you for occasioning this special trip down Memory Lane, ComplineSanFran.

Your posting gave me goosebumps, Don Ruggero. Thank you for sharing all you did. I am proud of my church, and believe that we and you Romans will continue to share very extraordinary, prayerful encounters.

 

[johnnyc176]

as the past three Pope’s openness has opened many eyes of those who would never have thought of converting the Catholic faith in the past, because of the tensions between the faiths.

Jim

As long as you don’t forget the mission. I’m okay and your okay is not the objective…

“In fact, many today think religions should respect each other and, in their dialogue, become a common force for peace. According to this way of thinking, it is usually taken for granted that different religions are variants of one and the same reality,” "The question of truth, that which originally motivated Christians more than any other, is here put inside parentheses. It is assumed that the authentic truth about God is in the last analysis unreachable and that at best one can represent the ineffable with a variety of symbols. This renunciation of truth seems realistic and useful for peace among religions in the world.

“It is nevertheless lethal to faith. In fact, faith loses its binding character and its seriousness, everything is reduced to interchangeable symbols, capable of referring only distantly to the inaccessible mystery of the divine,” - Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI

 

[JimR-OCDS]

As long as you don’t forget the mission. I’m okay and your okay is not the objective…

Of course he was speaking about dialogue with people of non-Christian cultures, not Christians of different denominations which is the subject of this thread.

I agree, one can not abandoned their Catholic Faith in order to be open to other non-Christian beliefs.

In fact just the opposite would be true.

A person who has true faith in Jesus Christ, will recognize the common truths in others for Jesus is the source of all truth. However, they will also recognize what is not true for Jesus Christ is the center of their faith. Whatever contradicts faith in Jesus Christ can not be true.

Jim

 

[johnnyc176]

Of course he was speaking about dialogue with people of non-Christian cultures, not Christians of different denominations which is the subject of this thread.

I agree, one can not abandoned their Catholic Faith in order to be open to other non-Christian beliefs.

In fact just the opposite would be true.

A person who has true faith in Jesus Christ, will recognize the common truths in others for Jesus is the source of all truth. However, they will also recognize what is not true for Jesus Christ is the center of their faith. Whatever contradicts faith in Jesus Christ can not be true.

Jim

There are very real and big differences between protestant denominations and the One True Faith, the Catholic Faith. Some more than others but still important differences with salvation at stake. The mission still applies. Christ wants all in His Church, the Catholic Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There are very real and big differences between protestant denominations and the One True Faith, the Catholic Faith. Some more than others but still important differences with salvation at stake. The mission still applies. Christ wants all in His Church, the Catholic Church.

So by your belief, people who are Episcopalian, Anglican, Lutherans etc, will not be saved ?

Jim

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

So by your belief, people who are Episcopalian, Anglican, Lutherans etc, will not be saved ?

Jim

According to the Church, it is an exception to the rule that non-Catholics go to Heaven.

 

[Bookcat]

According to the Church, it is an exception to the rule that non-Catholics go to Heaven.

Such is not the way the Church would discuss the possibility of salvation of those who are not in full communion with the Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

According to the Church, it is an exception to the rule that non-Catholics go to Heaven.

From the CCC Take note of 819

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Jim

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

From the CCC Take note of 819

Jim

The Catechism is making note of the exceptions. Of course all people receive graces & possibly even the gifts of the Holy Ghost, but *extra Ecclesiam nulla salus *has always been taught by the Church and it is only by exception that non-Catholics go to Heaven. People may receive salvation in those churches who are invincibly ignorant and receive Baptism and the truths that they have retained from the Catholic Church. The power they receive for Baptism comes from the Catholic Church since salvation only flows from the Catholic Church.

**Pope St. Gregory the Great **“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”
**Pope Boniface VIII **(Papal Bull Unam Sanctam) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (more Papal quotes with teachings from the ordinary & extraordinary Magisterium The Popes on Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)

CCC "“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Catechism is making note of the exceptions. Of course all people receive graces & possibly even the gifts of the Holy Ghost, but *extra Ecclesiam nulla salus *has always been taught by the Church and it is only by exception that non-Catholics go to Heaven. People may receive salvation in those churches who are invincibly ignorant and receive Baptism and the truths that they have retained from the Catholic Church. The power they receive for Baptism comes from the Catholic Church since salvation only flows from the Catholic Church.

**Pope St. Gregory the Great **“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”
**Pope Boniface VIII **(Papal Bull Unam Sanctam) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (more Papal quotes with teachings from the ordinary & extraordinary Magisterium The Popes on Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)

CCC "“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"

First off, you’d be subject to error going by Pope St. Gregory the Great, for he lived in the 6th Century when the Church was not divided, nor were there the centuries of corruption in the Church which came to follow.

Certainly, had Gregory been living in the 1500’s with Pope Alexander VI, he could’ve ended up with Martin Luther after witnessing what he saw.

Now, jump to the current day and what the Church currently teaches and try to follow that.

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Lastly, follow the examples of St Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.

Jim

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

First off, you’d be subject to error going by Pope St. Gregory the Great, for he lived in the 6th Century when the Church was not divided, nor were there the centuries of corruption in the Church which came to follow.

Certainly, had Gregory been living in the 1500’s with Pope Alexander VI, he could’ve ended up with Martin Luther after witnessing what he saw.

Now, jump to the current day and what the Church currently teaches and try to follow that.

Lastly, follow the examples of St Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.

Jim

I don’t see how corruption in the Church invalidates her dogmatic teaching, and it is absurd to say that a papal saint would follow an excommunicated heretic. I provided a quote from the Catechism that supports what I am saying, and the teachings of the Church on this matter haven’t suddenly changed since this is a dogma.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope St. Gregory the Great would not have followed Luther. He was a Saint and would have did what Saints do -live holy lives faithful to the Church…and often they work to reform that which is amiss.

 

[Bookcat]

I provided a quote from the Catechism that supports what I am saying, and the teachings of the Church on this matter haven’t suddenly changed since this is a dogma.

One would understand the Teachings of the Church as the Church understands and professes them…thus a good indication of that would be the quote that you provided from the Catechism and the quote that Jim provided from the Catechism. Both shed light on this variant strand in this thread.

As well as one may look at the other various recent documents concerning the matter at hand.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

One would understand the Teachings of the Church as the Church understands and professes them…thus a good indication of that would be the quote that you provided from the Catechism and the quote that Jim provided from the Catechism. Both shed light on this variant strand in this thread.

As well as one may look at the other various recent documents concerning the matter at hand.

Yes, while the Church does say that outside of her there is no salvation, there are a few exceptions that the Church gives the possibility for.