Altar "Addition"

[holyfamily1]

Mods - I don’t know if this is the correct section if not; please move it.

So, I am starting/trying to start the Tridentine Holy Mass at my parish and have some questions about the altar. The altar at my parish now is a free-standing altar. We will be using an altar frontal. The problem is, our altar is very small (in width) and there is not enough room (length wise) to place everything needed on the altar (candles, altar cards, crucifix, missal, etc). Would it be permissible to add wooden ends to the altar as long as no ciboria/chalices are set on it, in order for there to be enough room. We would obviously cover everything with an altar cloth. Next, may the shelves ( I am not familiar with the proper term ) that the candles and altar crucifix, etc. would sit on — may they sit on the altar. Thanks and please, please, please pray for us as we long for the Tridentine Holy Mass at my parish. Thank you in advance and may God bless you all!

Totus Tuus María

 

[YoungTradCath]

Mods - I don’t know if this is the correct section if not; please move it.

So, I am starting/trying to start the Tridentine Holy Mass at my parish and have some questions about the altar. The altar at my parish now is a free-standing altar. We will be using an altar frontal. The problem is, our altar is very small (in width) and there is not enough room (length wise) to place everything needed on the altar (candles, altar cards, crucifix, missal, etc). Would it be permissible to add wooden ends to the altar as long as no ciboria/chalices are set on it, in order for there to be enough room. We would obviously cover everything with an altar cloth. Next, may the shelves ( I am not familiar with the proper term ) that the candles and altar crucifix, etc. would sit on — may they sit on the altar. Thanks and please, please, please pray for us as we long for the Tridentine Holy Mass at my parish. Thank you in advance and may God bless you all!

Totus Tuus María

Edited by moderator - OP asked a question that did not require a personal commentary.

Anyway, no, I don’t see why there would be anything wrong with this solution. Some purists would object, and I concede that it isn’t the ideal–of course–but it works.

The shelves are called gradines. You don’t have to have them, but often they look nice. Personally, I associate a gradine-less altar with a monastic look. And sure, gradines can be on the altar. Where else would they go?

 

[holyfamily1]

That is one of the difficulties with freestanding altars. They tend not to be wide enough in relation to the building they are in. Even in old churches that have thankfully preserved their high altars, the freestanding altars tend to be much narrower than the high altars. It’s a bad effect visually.

Anyway, no, I don’t see why there would be anything wrong with this solution. Some purists would object, and I concede that it isn’t the ideal–of course–but it works.

The shelves are called gradines. You don’t have to have them, but often they look nice. Personally, I associate a gradine-less altar with a monastic look. And sure, gradines can be on the altar. Where else would they go?

Thanks!

Does anyone know of any place that sells them? Or, would one have to make them ( out of wood ? ) ? Thanks and may God Bless you!

Totus Tuus María

 

[YoungTradCath]

Thanks!

Does anyone know of any place that sells them? Or, would one have to make them ( out of wood ? ) ? Thanks and may God Bless you!

Totus Tuus María

Well, ordinarily they are built on to the altar if they are there. So you must build them. It shouldn’t be too hard.

 

[holyfamily1]

Side question that is related: I was planning on building this wood domed-boxed thing that looks like the tabernacle used to on free-standing high altar type of things. I was going to put a smaller, extra tabernacle my parish has in it. I was also going to make the top flat so that an altar crucifix should be placed on it.

Similar to this except with a flat top: http://www.stfranciscathedral.org/renovation/TabernacleDome10.JPG

If people could offer some prayers for the Traditional Latin Mass at St. PX Church.
Thanks and God bless!

 

[Greg_N]

A little off topic, but me and some others at my local parish are trying to start up a Tridentine Mass also, though I am still in the early stages of understanding the rubrics. Funnily enough our parish is called the “Holy Family” (like your username); it must be a sign haha.
I will pray that you are successful in your endeavour!

 

[holyfamily1]

A little off topic, but me and some others at my local parish are trying to start up a Tridentine Mass also, though I am still in the early stages of understanding the rubrics. Funnily enough our parish is called the “Holy Family” (like your username); it must be a sign haha.
I will pray that you are successful in your endeavour!

Maybe it is a sign?

I will pray for your Latin Mass Community as well! Thanks! May God Bless you guys!

 

[malphono]

That is one of the difficulties with freestanding altars. They tend not to be wide enough in relation to the building they are in. Even in old churches that have thankfully preserved their high altars, the freestanding altars tend to be much narrower than the high altars. It’s a bad effect visually.

Anyway, no, I don’t see why there would be anything wrong with this solution. Some purists would object, and I concede that it isn’t the ideal–of course–but it works.

It’s true that oftentimes they are not deep enough to accommodate, but then again, if one looks at most fixed altars, one sees that the altar itself is generally quite narrow. The difference in depth (i.e. where to place the candles, etc) is due to the gradines. Of course, necessity is the mother of invention and there are solutions albeit, as you rightly point out, such solutions might not be ideal. But yes, they can work.

The shelves are called gradines. You don’t have to have them, but often they look nice. Personally, I associate a gradine-less altar with a monastic look. And sure, gradines can be on the altar. Where else would they go?

No, actually the gradines are not ON the altar but, rather, attached to it. It may sound nit-picky but there is a difference. But in any case, perhaps therein lies the solution. A simple backpiece, the height of, or perhaps a few inches higher than, the mensa,should do the trick. If it has to be movable (i.e. if the altar has to also be used for non-ad orientem celebration), it could even be in pieces. The object is to give the altar a few more inches of depth to accommodate the cross, candlesticks, etc.

It’s similar to the moveable “platform” I’ve seen in several places where the altar was pulled out and made free-standing but with a ledge in front, to substitute for the missing pradella. It’s not ideal, but it works. The movable gradine should work just as well.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It’s true that oftentimes they are not deep enough to accommodate, but then again, if one looks at most fixed altars, one sees that the altar itself is generally quite narrow. The difference in depth (i.e. where to place the candles, etc) is due to the gradines. Of course, necessity is the mother of invention and there are solutions albeit, as you rightly point out, such solutions might not be ideal. But yes, they can work.

No, actually the gradines are not ON the altar but, rather, attached to it. It may sound nit-picky but there is a difference. But in any case, perhaps therein lies the solution. A simple backpiece, the height of, or perhaps a few inches higher than, the mensa,should do the trick. If it has to be movable (i.e. if the altar has to also be used for non-ad orientem celebration), it could even be in pieces. The object is to give the altar a few more inches of depth to accommodate the cross, candlesticks, etc.

It’s similar to the moveable “platform” I’ve seen in several places where the altar was pulled out and made free-standing but with a ledge in front, to substitute for the missing pradella. It’s not ideal, but it works. The movable gradine should work just as well.

I’m sorry, by “width” I actually meant “length” in an absolute sense, but in saying width I meant to compare it to the width of the building itself. So from Gospel side to Epistle side of both the altar and the building. Usually the high altars are very wide/long in that sense and proportionally complement the building quite well, but the little freestanding altars in front of them are often about two feet shorter/narrower than the high altars, and the visual effect is bad. It makes the high altar look like a fun piece of furniture, a decoration, and the freestanding altar like a slap-on, an afterthought. Well, with old churches usually that’s what they in fact are, but I don’t think they should look like it. For example, my high altar is like 7 feet long/wide, but my freestanding is like 3.5, and the base itself is one teensy marble pedestal about 2 feet wide. It looks so bad.

And . Yes the gradines are behind the altar on altars that really have them, but when one is doing one of these sorts of projects it is very common to simply place a shelf thing on the back of the mensa. FSSP does it that way, that’s where I got the idea.

 

[malphono]

I’m sorry, by “width” I actually meant “length” in an absolute sense, but in saying width I meant to compare it to the width of the building itself. So from Gospel side to Epistle side of both the altar and the building. Usually the high altars are very wide/long in that sense and proportionally complement the building quite well, but the little freestanding altars in front of them are often about two feet shorter/narrower than the high altars, and the visual effect is bad. It makes the high altar look like a fun piece of furniture, a decoration, and the freestanding altar like a slap-on, an afterthought. Well, with old churches usually that’s what they in fact are, but I don’t think they should look like it. For example, my high altar is like 7 feet long/wide, but my freestanding is like 3.5, and the base itself is one teensy marble pedestal about 2 feet wide. It looks so bad.

Gotcha. And yes, the effect is often less than optimal. But of course some high altars were absurdly long, which doesn’t make much sense either. Personally, I’ve always preferred true free-standing altars (such as in Notre-Dame de Paris). That said, though, there are precious few of them.

With fixed altars, the length and depth should, I think, be at least somewhat proportional. It gives a better visual effect, as well as more usable space on the altar itself. Just MHO.

And . Yes the gradines are behind the altar on altars that really have them, but when one is doing one of these sorts of projects it is very common to simply place a shelf thing on the back of the mensa. FSSP does it that way, that’s where I got the idea.

The “shelf-thing” and a “portable gradine” are really the same aren’t they?

 

[holyfamily1]

Side question that is related: I was planning on building this wood domed-boxed thing that looks like the tabernacle used to on free-standing high altar type of things. I was going to put a smaller, extra tabernacle my parish has in it. I was also going to make the top flat so that an altar crucifix should be placed on it.

Similar to this except with a flat top: http://www.stfranciscathedral.org/renovation/TabernacleDome10.JPG

If people could offer some prayers for the Traditional Latin Mass at St. PX Church.
Thanks and God bless!

Anyone?

Thanks everyone for your responses and please if you will; pray for us! God bless!!

Totus Tuus María

 

[malphono]

Anyone?

I’m not quite sure what you’re intending to do. If it’s something to give the ***impression ***of a tabernacle in the middle of a “free-standing” altar, my personal feeling is not to bother. Even with a false-gradine added. If there’s a real tabernacle in the church, that’s it. A fake tabernacle is extraneous. It really has no place and certainly serves no purpose.

Now, if I’ve misunderstood and/or the idea is something else, please clarify.

 

[holyfamily1]

I’m not quite sure what you’re intending to do. If it’s something to give the ***impression ***of a tabernacle in the middle of a “free-standing” altar, my personal feeling is not to bother. Even with a false-gradine added. If there’s a real tabernacle in the church, that’s it. A fake tabernacle is extraneous. It really has no place and certainly serves no purpose.

Now, if I’ve misunderstood and/or the idea is something else, please clarify.

Actually, I was intending to make a shell type thing for our church’s extra tabernacle which I would then place on the altar.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Actually, I was intending to make a shell type thing for our church’s extra tabernacle which I would then place on the altar.

I don’t see the point of that. Many of the ancient freestanding altars that do exist, in fact most of them, do not have tabernacles on them.

 

[holyfamily1]

I don’t see the point of that. Many of the ancient freestanding altars that do exist, in fact most of them, do not have tabernacles on them.

Well, sadly our church’s tabernacle is in a reservation “chapel,” so what then would we do? Thanks!

 

[YoungTradCath]

Well, sadly our church’s tabernacle is in a reservation “chapel,” so what then would we do? Thanks!

Nothing. You do not have to have a tabernacle on or behind the altar to make the EF work correctly. Just make sure that, at the beginning and end of Mass, instead of the priest genuflecting, he bows instead. Also with the incensing I believe. Otherwise, genuflect as usual. Or ask him to contact the FSSP or ICRSS. They will know.

 

[Reborn2013]

If you are planning on going through with this, I suggest you watch a short youtube time lapse sequence of some French FSSP priests transforming a free standing ordinary form altar to a traditional altar. The result shows a striking difference between the “ordinary” and “extraordinary.”

youtube.com/watch?v=oUNfbgRJOe8

If anyone can read the French subtitles, I would be curious to know what they say.

 

[holyfamily1]

Yes! That video of the transformation of an altar is really cool!

If we were to at some point start offering a Solemn High Mass, I assume we would use a “straw” subdeacon, but, would the other priest ( the one who would need to be deacon ) need to go to training such at the FSSP or, would our priest be able to train him.

Also, what items are needed for a Solemn High Mass apart from that of a Low Mass?

Thanks and God Bless!!

Totus Tuus María

 

[englishredrose]

Would you not have to ask the priest before doing anything anyway? No good making it all then he decides it not for that church, unless he has already approached you to design and make.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yes! That video of the transformation of an altar is really cool!

If we were to at some point start offering a Solemn High Mass, I assume we would use a “straw” subdeacon, but, would the other priest ( the one who would need to be deacon ) need to go to training such at the FSSP or, would our priest be able to train him.

Also, what items are needed for a Solemn High Mass apart from that of a Low Mass?

Thanks and God Bless!!

Totus Tuus María

Any priest who knows how to do it can train him.

Thurible
Humeral veil
Probably a cope
Dalmatic with deacon’s stole
Tunicle
Two more maniples
Six candles instead of two

I think that’s it.