Altar Calls are

  • Thread starter Thread starter CopticChristian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Maryann_C said:
By the way it is MaryANN but anyway. It matters not if it is one or 2 different venues , I was trying to make very clear what infact you say that you do believe but perhaps I misunderstood you so let me get this correct …you were NOT saying that just because people BELIEVE/have faith that the bread and wine are Jesus makes the bread and wine so? In which case you were agreeing with the point I was trying to make that the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist at a Catholic mass has NOTHING to do with what we believe in faith OR perceive.
To me your post seemed to indicate a ‘well I believe we have it right but they have their own beliefs and who are we to be able to change them’ sort of attitude. I wholeheartedly disagree with your last point that one can not by argument, or let us say discussion , change a persons understanding and bring them to a proper understanding of the truth. If that were the case none of us would be here and the Church would not exist because the apostles and early evangelists would not have had any converts either!! Your point completely baffles me because it is so illogical.
Click to expand...
M,

Look at all the battles over Sola Scriptura and then understand that you can present what you believe to be facts and even then minds do not change. Here is a perfect example…

Look at the information presented to deny the Protocanonicals and then you can see that even with presentation of information…minds do not change.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=609262

I am more for examining the way people present their beliefs and understanding and causing them to reflect on how they came to that understanding by asking questions that cause them to reflect on the possibility that the conclusions may have been made on faulty information in my opinion, as I see it.
 
IggyAntiochus said:
Take, eat, this is my body. We have His promise that when we take and eat, as He instituted His Supper, He is present in true body and true blood, for the forgiveness of our sins.
Click to expand...
So can I pick up a piece of bread and cup of wine anywhere and say that it is Jesus and eat drink Jesus ?
 
Maryann_C said:
So can I pick up a piece of bread and cup of wine anywhere and say that it is Jesus and eat drink Jesus ?
Click to expand...
No, because the Sacramental promise is within the context of the communion of the Church, since it is equally a communion with each other as well as with Christ.
 
CopticChristian said:
A,

It matters not…to you. Understand that.I understand that it matters not what you nor I believe when it comes to truth because truth is not dependent on our beliefs as you have already alluded to yourself in your argument with David, that you suggested I look at.* I partial quote CC from the link to the discussion he gave post # 75 or 76 "Dispute the scientific evidence of this. "*

I suggest a direct question for a direct answer. And this is what you are doing in your post?"
But perhaps I misunderstood you negates everything you said beforethe fact that I said “perhaps” qualifies the statement and proposes another look. and therefore I would agree that you misunderstood me. You suggested above that you like to keep things simple so why not just say “you misunderstood me” ?

You are not saying that what you believe causes the sacrament to be the sacrament are you? The answer is equivalent to the question. No.So we are not at odds.

A proper understanding of the truth. That is interesting.So you disagree with yourself and do NOT believe in such a thing as undeniable, or let’s say scientific, truth that can be properly understood ?

Understand that when you communicate that there are certain rules operating…we are in effect speaking different languages in our communication.This does not however mean that people can not make themselves understood

Understand that a belief is a filter that does something to information based on that belief.agreed but should that stop me from presenting any facts or my opinions? You may not agree, you may not like it, you may not understand it…but this is fact that is predictable and can be understood by observation.

Next ask yourself how is it I come to believe anything…
  1. Fact
  2. Assumption
  3. False Conclusion
If you can think of another way I am open to that however I believe that this is it…

Step off a building and you will fall to the ground because you know gravity is in effect. Fact therefore you do not step off a building because you believe you will fall. So one’s ACTION ( whether or not to walk off said building) is governed by one’s belief but one’s belief may or may not be governed by fact . I understand what you mean but MY point was that I was talking about FACT ,which ,as you say above ,is a component of belief . However fact is fact and as you have said yourself “Dispute the scientific evidence of this.” I may not be a Dr or scientist so …just as you had David do…I bow to the scientist’s findings when it comes to the scientific facts around the miracle of Lanciano. Here my belief on the real presence is based on FACT

I have never touched a stove that is hot and I assume that flesh will not burn. Assumption that will be clarified by fact.

I have read about all the information I need from the Yogi’s that electricity is a charge of nature and when I put my finger in a light socket I conclude it will energize me and I will get smarter. False conclusion that will lead to fact that will allow you to get smarter. the truth based on fact is still unchangeable you simply are proving my point …unless you misunderstood my English;)

The Eucharist is based on an assumption.This is your opinion this is not a factual statement, unless …you know more than Jesus ,all the Apostles, early Church Fathers and scientists … The miracles persuade you and me but not others. So is it a fact? whether you and I are persuaded and others are not does not change scientific findings and facts

The Lords Supper everywhere else outside the validiy of consecration gives grace. I conclude that this is a false assumption. Here is the kicker…it has been my experience that Lutherans, in particular JohnNC…believes it to be a source of grace…am I to ridicule him…degrade him…after much dialogue I came to the conclusion based on what I read that whether he concludes falsely or not is not for me to determine for him. He sees it as a source of grace. I disagree…the arguments are all over this website…I don’t see him changing his mind…I see a deep love for Christ, I see Charity, I see support of the Catholic Faith…so what is the point of arguing with a Lutheran that is strong in their Faith that often times rallies to the support of the views of the OHCAC…does he receive grace…I do not know…I pray that he does…Lord help not my belief…help my unbelief.With due respect I have to ask …your point? but anyway ,of course “The Lords Supper everywhere else outside the validity of consecration gives grace.” it is a source of grace as far as any worship, prayer, adoration of God is. Grace does not only come from the sacraments alone that is “sacramental Grace” I direct you to CCC 2003.

God is impartial …those that disagree with you have the gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity… …no amount of argument is going to change their mind…then why bother being on CAF or in discussion with anyone?

“only you can change your mind”🙂
Click to expand...
I grant that only the individual can CHOOSE to accept one argument or line of thought over another or only the individual can CHOOSE to accept facts presented(such as the scientific evidence of the living human tissue in the miracle of Lanciano that is about 1500 years old and defies all logic)…as your David did ,but I care not what you call that change of mind. After all that is the nature and beauty of free will.

I think that you and I have sufficiently hijacked this thread so I graciously bow out.
 
IggyAntiochus said:
No, because the Sacramental promise is within the context of the communion of the Church, since it is equally a communion with each other as well as with Christ.
Click to expand...
So if 2 or 3 are gathered together eating some bread and wine they are eating Jesus body .blood soul and divinity?
 
CopticChristian said:
M,

Look at all the battles over Sola Scriptura and then understand that you can present what you believe to be facts and even then minds do not change. Here is a perfect example…

Look at the information presented to deny the Protocanonicals and then you can see that even with presentation of information…minds do not change.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=609262

I am more for examining the way people present their beliefs and understanding and causing them to reflect on how they came to that understanding by asking questions that cause them to reflect on the possibility that the conclusions may have been made on faulty information in my opinion, as I see it.
Click to expand...
I am also familiar with this method as I think you will observe but I choose not to be limited to this method.
 
Maryann_C said:
So if 2 or 3 are gathered together eating some bread and wine they are eating Jesus body .blood soul and divinity?
Click to expand...
If one of them is called into the Office of the Holy Ministry, and the sacrament is celebrated, yes. Not if they’re just “eating some bread and wine.”
 
IggyAntiochus said:
If one of them is called into the Office of the Holy Ministry, and the sacrament is celebrated, yes. Not if they’re just “eating some bread and wine.”
Click to expand...
But Lutherans don’t regard ordination as a sacrament. So how is a person “called into the Office of the Holy Ministry” anything but a glorified layman that enjoys the confidence of a few people/his congregation… until he gives a sermon preaching against sexual sin, for example–at which point they run him out of town?

(I don’t mean to be flippant or cause offense. If I’m labouring under any misconceptions, feel free to correct me.)
 
Maryann_C said:
I grant that only the individual can CHOOSE to accept one argument or line of thought over another or only the individual can CHOOSE to accept facts presented(such as the scientific evidence of the living human tissue in the miracle of Lanciano that is about 1500 years old and defies all logic)…as your David did ,but I care not what you call that change of mind. After all that is the nature and beauty of free will.

I think that you and I have sufficiently hijacked this thread so I graciously bow out.
Click to expand...
M,

You have an interesting mode of dialogue.

You grant? Does this mean that you accept, you understand, you perceive?

You capatize CHOOSE. What does this mean? Choice is essential to everything. There is in fact a person named William Glasser, MD, that proposed Choice as a therapeutic model. He wrote a book “Choice Theory” and spawned a belief “Reality Therapy” with a website devoted to same. Choice is what causes people to accept or deny.

Choosing to accept facts as presented would be easy if they were accepted as facts. You may not be aware of the fact that this Miracle of Lanciano has been discussed and there are people that deny this fact you accept. Is it a fact? For you and I it is however for those that reject it what is it?

My David. What does that mean? You follow that with “I care not what you call this change of mind”. Am I to believe that you discount me? I did not call it anything.

You conclude with a sentence that is structurally unsound. You commence with a preposition and follow with a thought.
After all that is the nature and beauty of free will.
Click to expand...
You think that I have hijacked this thread. Thank you for your inclusive language. The thread is altar calls. Altars have lots to do with lots of things. There are permutations of what an altar call is. The word altar has been discussed in this thread. Is this a highjack too? The Eucharist has been discussed. Is this also a highjack? Many things have been discussed. The purpose of the thread is to generate discussion.

You have bowed out. This is enough. I shall miss you.🙂
 
Trebor135 said:
But Lutherans don’t regard ordination as a sacrament. So how is a person “called into the Office of the Holy Ministry” anything but a glorified layman that enjoys the confidence of a few people/his congregation… until he gives a sermon preaching against sexual sin, for example–at which point they run him out of town?

(I don’t mean to be flippant or cause offense. If I’m labouring under any misconceptions, feel free to correct me.)
Click to expand...
That is because we have a very definite and specific definition of what a sacrament is, much of which follows Augustinian thought. Namely, a sacrament is an ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry, for the purpose of the forgiveness of sins, that is accomplished through a visible sign. It doesn’t meet the criteria for the latter two. The Office of the Holy Ministry is most definitely instituted by Christ. He is not a glorified layman. Something does not have to be a sacrament in order for it to have significance.

Article V of the Augsburg Confession states: “That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ’s sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ’s sake. They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works.”
 
CC, I guess this was your thread so you could not have hijacked it just taken it wherever you chose…that is after all your CHOICE 😃
 
IggyAntiochus said:
If one of them is called into the Office of the Holy Ministry, and the sacrament is celebrated, yes. Not if they’re just “eating some bread and wine.”
Click to expand...
1.So you agree that for Jesus to be present, body .blood soul and divinity, requires MORE than just the communion of the Church in the sens that Jesus said “where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name”?

2.So if I say I ( a woman) am called and go to x seminary and get my little card that says I am a pastor does that mean that I was called to the office of Holy ministry? Do I then have whatever ‘magic’ s needed to turn the bread and wine into Jesus?
 
Maryann_C said:
CC, I guess this was your thread so you could not have hijacked it just taken it wherever you chose…that is after all your CHOICE 😃
Click to expand...
M,

I appreciate your encore. You may want to search this site for what is said about Lanciano. It is not required by Catholics to be believed and is considered private revelation. You may also want to view this thread concerning the real presence…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579920

Pay attention to those that doubt. Lanciano I believe comes up in the discussion. Beliefs are hard to change.🙂
 
Maryann_C said:
1.So you agree that for Jesus to be present, body .blood soul and divinity, requires MORE than just the communion of the Church in the sens that Jesus said “where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name”?
Click to expand...
Yes.
2.So if I say I ( a woman) am called and go to x seminary and get my little card that says I am a pastor does that mean that I was called to the office of Holy ministry? Do I then have whatever ‘magic’ s needed to turn the bread and wine into Jesus?
Click to expand...
No. Because only men are called into the office of the holy ministry. No magic involved…all according to Christ’s command and promise 🙂
 
IggyAntiochus said:
That is because we have a very definite and specific definition of what a sacrament is, much of which follows Augustinian thought. Namely, a sacrament is an ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry, for the purpose of the forgiveness of sins, that is accomplished through a visible sign. It doesn’t meet the criteria for the latter two. The Office of the Holy Ministry is most definitely instituted by Christ. He is not a glorified layman. Something does not have to be a sacrament in order for it to have significance.

Article V of the Augsburg Confession states: “That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ’s sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ’s sake. They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works.”
Click to expand...
I see. But from where does a pastor’s authority come? Isn’t it the case that his job is based on the support of his congregation?
 
We have an altar call in the Byzantine Rite . . .

“Approach with fear of God and with faith!”
 
CopticChristian said:
M,

I see that you have changed your mind.🙂
Click to expand...
I meant only not to continue our particular conversation because I really thought we were spinning wheels and actually agreeing but not understanding each other. By the way I am English and half German so I apologize if I have a different way of structuring myr sentences. If there is another English person on this forum who would like to tell me I am off my rocker in my sentence structure then I will truly try to amend my ways, but for now the way I speak is very natural for me ( even after 20+ years in the US).

And yes I grant= I accept,
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top